Cult of Mormonism?
By Shaun Kenney | Wednesday, December 14th, 2011 | Culture, Politics
So a Gingrich aide just got released for his opinion on the Latter-Day Saints. Here’s the essence of it:
Craig Bergman during a focus group last Wednesday with the Iowa Republican and McClatchy newspapers said he thought Romney’s religion eventually would cost him votes.
“A lot of the evangelicals believe God would give us four more years of Obama just for the opportunity to expose the cult of Mormon,” Bergman said during the focus group, according to The Iowa Republican. “There’s a thousand pastors ready to do that.”
In a statement Tuesday evening, the Gingrich campaign said Bergman had “agreed to step away from his role with Newt 2012.”
…and frankly, I disagree with the action. In fact, I’ll go a step further — from a man as highly regarded (self or otherwise) as an intellectual, Gingrich should have been able to turn a blind eye and allow a conversation about religion and culture to ensue.
Catholics have always been slammed as a “cult” by our Protestantized cousins, namely because Catholics never pushed off against the idea of Catholicism as culture.
For Catholics, we embrace the idea of cult — whether that is devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, a particular way of life (Jesuits, Dominicans, Franciscans, and perhaps Anglicans when the union is complete?), or a specific charism of the Church (speaking in tongues).
These are the cults that build culture.
The problem is that whenever Americans use the term in the vernacular, we don’t think of cult as culture… we think of the Branch Davidians, or the Wiccan tree huggers, or hipsters and their fondness for Salvation Army thrift stores (I keed… I keed… but only so much).
In addition, there is a massive difference between cult as culture, and the entire opposite of this: the occult.
Now the reader will have to forgive me at this point. I have very little toleration or interest in exploring this facet of spirituality, and therefore will not dwell on it here.
I will mention this much — occultism is what we generally think of when we explore the idea of a “cult” in America: something that is separated from culture, something that is separated from the community of believers, something that offers secret knowledge or gnosis either through a select reading of Scripture or a distorted lens of reality, something that is aimed at Truth, wings it, and then comes away with a highly distorted idea of what Truth is.
That’s the occult. This is what St. Peter warned about in 2 Peter 1:20 – 2:3
First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you , who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep.
There’s a lot to digest in here, but I’ll condense it as best I can: (1) the community of believers is a public body — visible and extant, (2) false teachers and false prophets will come from within the community of believers, (3) their methods will be “secret” and “denying” and “destructive” and “greedy”, and (4) the last line, which is the most chilling — “from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep” — tells you the source of this division… and it is occult.
Now obviously, Christians are not lock-step automatons. I prefer Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Others prefer reading Sacred Scripture. Others volunteer. Some pray the Rosary. Others sing in the choir. Some view their faiths through the traditions of their denominations — Lutheran, Anglican, Franciscan, Jesuit, Baptist, nondenominational (yes folks, that is a denomination), Mormon, etc.
We are not one, as Christ prayed we would be. Yet we are all believers.
And so the question arises: Are these cults as culture? Or cults as occult?
Now I am quite certain that our friend working with the Gingrich campaign intended his remarks to be entirely negative. But it does not erase the fundamental point of cult as culture – or whether differing faiths are automatically occult by virtue of their differences.
As for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I fundamentally disagree with them on points of theology. Namely, I believe Jesus Christ is true God and true man. I believe in the Holy Trinity.
Alternatively, I do not question for a moment their sincere and faithful love of Jesus Christ, their devotion to family, and truly envy at times the ties that bind… yes, the culture of Mormonism.
Perhaps it’s time that we, as Americans, set down the whole negative spin on culture and start discussing how faith is integral to the idea of culture. What has happened over the last 50 years as American culture has divorced itself from faith, checked it at the door to public offices and schools, denied it in our “holiday seasons” and from our public greetings, even to the point of allowing in to infect our Sunday worship.
Is this not the pinch of incense to the Roman gods our 3rd century forebearers would have sacrificed physical martyrdom for, yet when the pinch of incense to our 21st century gods of consumerism and secularism (every bit a belief system as Christianity) we refuse to sacrifice spiritual martyrdom for?
And we wonder why America is falling apart.
There are good forms of belief and there are bad ones. There’s cult as culture, and then there’s the sort of cult that St. Peter so accurately warned about — the occult. Be on guard against the latter… but consider the former. Culture, truly independent culture, is what we have lost after the advent of the French Revolution, replaced with secularism or nationalism or consumerism or socialism. This degrades humanity… one giant “cult as culture” that is distinctly separate from what many Christians would identify as orthodoxy.
Let’s embrace culture, in all forms. Let’s have the healthy conversation. Let’s not use language to sweep aside what we agree upon in favor of the tiny bit that divides us. Be on guard against the occult, but do not fear the idea of culture.
It’s good for us… and it’s what we’re sorely lacking in America today.
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About the author
Shaun Kenney is the Chairman of the Fluvanna County Board of Supervisors, former Communications Director for the Republican Party of Virginia, and an active blogger since 2002. Shaun lives in Thomas Jefferson's backyard with his wife, six children, and a modest attempt at a farm in Kents Store, Virginia.
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51 Responses to "Cult of Mormonism?"
While I disagree, I think the aide did the right thing by resigning, you raise a lot of valid points, in my opinion. I’m a devout Catholic and very much try to live my Catholic culture to its fullest. Some of my best friends are Mormons and in my experience visiting Utah or simply hanging out with my friends, I’ve found Mormon culture to be a real example of the American spirit. I of course disagree with LDS theology, but nonetheless, they bring a culture to this country or I’ve found in some cases, revived a culture of family, community and caring that so much of our nation has lost.
One small note, Jesuit and Franciscan aren’t denominations of Christianity…
Excellent post.
I think it is interesting how a word can take on a negative meaning even though the dictionary definition is not negative at all. If the aide was denigrating Mormons (I think he was) he was in the wrong. However, I do believe that faith should be a factor in casting a vote. That doesn’t mean someone has to have the same beliefs as me, but that how their beliefs influence their decisionmaking is an important factor. As far as Newt and Mitt, there is so much contrast that which faith I like more is not very relevant, just how sincere they really are and how much they really adhere to their stated beliefs. I would have more respect for someone who admits to be a lukewarm Christian or an agnostic rather than trying to be something they are not (I am not saying that is the case with either of these two, just explaining my view).
What a thoughtful and astute post. Very well laid out in theological terms and an excellent distillation of the cultural problem in America today. Gingrich is a relatively recent convert to Catholicism. I find his actions quite surprising in this matter.
@RightOnGallows –
re: Jesuits and Franciscans, you are absolutely right — they are not “denominations” in the purest sense of the term, but they are certainly flavors of Catholicism (and Christianity) no different than Lutheranism or Baptists or Methodism — at least on the big picture items.
I would certainly view them as “denominations” in the larger scope of the community of believers… though unlike varying Protestant denominations, they all believe the same things to a very finite (and Catholic) point.
If mormons loved Christ, they would speak the words of Christ and also those of the Holy Spirit. They are a cult, and cannot be considered in the realm of orthodox Christianity.
These are also personal choices made by them, and others must not be made to feel as though personal wrong has been committed because they speak against the cult of mormonism. Why would it seem remarkable to anyone should Satan be transformed into an “angel” of light when we are clearly informed of the possiblity of its occurring.
On the face of it, mormonism seems non threatening and this is the where the danger lies. The works in the end are the same, the denial of the Christ ( Messiah in the former, Christ Jesus in the latter ) in both the old and New Testaments, the very Word of God itself. They only carry the KJV of the Bible to put folks at ease, not because they have any confidence in it. Their own literature states it is not to be trusted and has been corrupted. In this they are not different than any other non believer.
I agree with JG. It is a fact that the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith, believed that Christianity was apostate. It is a fact that Joseph Smith denied the Trinity. He even preached against it. It is a fact that Mormonism is a polytheistic religion (that was even a question on a game show). It is a fact that the Book Of Mormon, prior to the 1981 change (a lot can be said about that since they’ve had to change their religious book many times), stated in 2 Nephi 30:6 that American Indians would turn white when they converted to Mormonism. It is a fact that they believe the reason people had black skin was that they had the mark of Cain. It is a fact that they believe a woman can only get into heaven upon permission of her husband. It is a fact that Mormon men still ceremonially marry multiple wives in order for them to bear bodies for the pre existing souls and that is why they are pro life. It is a fact that they believe they themselves will be gods and need to have multiple wives to populate the new worlds given to them. It is a fact that they believe that Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan. They believe in a totally different Jesus than the Biblical Jesus. They made up their own Jesus. Read this: http://www.onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?id=1468930
Also, read Dr. Waler Martin’s book Kingdom of the Cults. He has a section about Mormonism.
AND YES Mormonism is a cult. Not only that, I know someone who came out of that religion. This person in their own words said that Mormonism is satanic. Anyone who denies the Biblical Jesus is NOT a Christian.
Technically, anyone who doesn’t believe the Nicene Creed is not a Christian, but that doesn’t mean I won’t vote for the said person.
Technically, I would say Mormonism is henotheistic, not polytheistic. But it wasn’t always so.
The irony is, I would argue that the Book of Mormon is more explicitly trinitarian in its language than is the Bible.
Alma 11:44: “every thing…shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God…”
3 Nephi 11:27: “And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.”
3 Nephi 11:36: “And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.”
(and many more examples)
However, Joseph Smith received a revelation some 14 years after the Book of Mormon was written and expounded to an audience a new doctrine: “I will preach on the plurality of the Gods.”
In this sermon, he even went so far as to claim that Gen. 1:1 should properly read “In the beginning the head of the Gods brought forth the Gods.” Here, he also preached that “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit.”
Faced with the apparent contradiction in their own Book of Mormon, Latter-day Saints now say it is to be meant “one in purpose.” Faced with the Contradictions of the Bible, Mr. Smith was much more incredulous (and downright wrong).
Where John 17:22 states, “And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one,” Joseph Smith stated in this sermon that the Greek word translated as “one” (”EN), should properly be translated as “agreed,” in an apparent linguistic amateurism that forgot the word “Eis” (literally, “one”) has a neuter form (”EN), and is not a preposition meaning “amongst”… (Gr. ‘EN)
But all that aside, the “cult” of Mormonism has received much criticism, but there are many members of the LDS church who are not aware of the finer points of their theology, nor even the teachings of their prophet Joseph Smith, and maintain a very traditionally Christian monotheism that is very nearly identical in its theology to the Athanasian Creed. In that sense, it may be unfair to classify individual Mormons as necessarily “unChristian,” just as it would be unfair to classify all members of another denomination as necessarily “Christian.”
Great post, Shaun!
(Greek font is not working, so I had to substitute the Roman equivalents.)
Patty, what a load of rubbish. Kingdom of Cults is so seriously flawed. How many actual Mormons have you met? While they may not be trinitarian, I have encountered a deeper love of Jesus from Mormons than I have from many evangelicals who seem to preach on fear and wrath alone.
Patty and JG,
If Mormonism is a cult, then what do you call Pentacostals? I’ll bet that you also believe that Jews are Christ-killers who are all going to Hell, don’t you?
Great post, Shaun. My sixth grade Catholic school teacher, Sister Mary Euthanasia would be proud of you.
Andrew, Mormonism is polytheistic. It is well documented.
Did you check the web site reference I gave you on the other thread? If you go to that web site you can search Moromonism. They have quotes from Joseph Smith in their articles.
And even if it is polytheistic (which is debatable, your sources are biased) does that equal cult? Usually with cults you have this little problem of not being able to leave, brainwashing, etc… Earlier I referenced that I have many Mormon friends including a Mormon family of 14 kids total. Three of them made the decision to leave Mormonism, two for the Maronite Church and one for the Russian Orthodox Church. Their devout Mormon parents still love them. No one broke ties with them. No one shuns them, they were perfectly free to leave. Not a tendency you see in cults too often. Oh and none of these three guys (all were temple endowed) believe the LDS church is Satanic. Most of these accusations comes from bitter ex-members with an agenda.
ROG, I’ve probably met more Mormons than you unless you are one. Dr. Martin’s work is well documented and a classic. He had done extensive research on the Mormon religion. Mormons do not believe in the Biblical Jesus. Therefore they have a made up a fairy tale Jesus who is in no way the same as the true Jesus Christ. Galations 1:6-10. Mormons preach a different Gospel and a different Jesus. As I said before, their founder Joseph Smith was openly hostile to the Christian faith. He believed that the Biblical Christian faith was apostate. He said he received golden plates, a direct revelation from God. You have to ask yourself if that revelation was direct from God why has it been changed many times over the years. Please, try to use the brain God gave you. Matthew 7:15. The Mormon religion is one of the most racist and sexist religions on the planet. It really is. Of course if you are a white male I can understand how Mormonism appeals to you.
Interesting read and comments…especially as a former Mormon.
Actually not, Rocky, and no I don’t believe Jews are “Christ killers,” condemning the whole of Israel. Other than what Jesus said, such as at Mark 9:31, “Delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him…”, and, Mark 10:33, “Delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, AND SHALL DELIVER HIM TO THE GENTILES. These are similar to Luke 9:44 (hands of men), Luke 18:32 (delivered unto the gentiles), Luke 24:7 (sinful men), John 18:36 (delivered to the Jews), and finally Acts 2:23(by wicked hands). The point in the foregoing is that all men participated in the deliverance of Christ to Calvary’s cross.
It is yet the same today in the hearts of men who turn away from the Savior. The fact that 1 thessolonians 2 clearly states the Jews both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets is incidental as the whole of the Christian church was Jewish in the beginning. Thousands of Jews believed on him. In fact, one of the most interesting accounts is that of the “one born blind”.
Blood guiltiness is prohibited in the Word of God, every man shall bear his own burden, so to be outraged at the Jew is innappropriate. We are all guilty.
Remember, Noah by his act, condemned the world. So too today, the world stands condemned except for God’s saving grace as demonstrated by the resurrection of Christ and our steadfast confidence in Him as Savior.
Hell was not created for men but the Devil and his angels. That is not to say that men may not go there.
I am of the opinion by your remarks, that you are not a sincere person.
Andrew, we had a former Mormon speak to our youth group. They do believe in many gods. They also believe that they can become one. For example, “Exaltation in Celestial Kingdom; godhood and abilitly to bear children in heaven. Must have a temple recommended and be sealed in Mormon Temple (D&C 131:1-4, 132:19-25, 30, 55)” Yes, I have documentation sitting right in front of me that was given to me by this former Mormon.
Andrew, did you know that the Book of Mormon plagarized the King James Version of the Bible (in reference to your quotes). “According to a careful survey of the Book of Mormon, it contains at least 25,000 words from the King James Bible. In fact, verbatim quotations, some of considerable length, have caused the Mormons no end of embarrassment for many years.” page 187, The Kingdom of the Cults by Dr. Walter Martin, 46th printing 1992. Also: “Aside from the King James Version of the Bible , which Mormons accept as a part of the Word of God ‘insofar as it is correctly translated,’ they have added the Doctrine of Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the intial volume, the Book of Mormon, to the cannon of what they would call authorized Scripture- the ‘Four Standard Works.’” page 177, The Kingdom of the Cults by Dr. Walter Martin, 46th printing 1992.
I think it was the right decision for Newt to let him go (resign.) There is no room for that kind of talk in this or any other campaign, and this thread proves what a volatile issue it is. Frankly, any organized religion is a cult as far as I’m concerned. Whether you believe in Santa Clause, Ooga-Booga, Virgin births, prophets floating to heaven, burning bushes and magic tablets, etc., all of it based in pure fantasy. So, I prefer to leave the religion out of it (e.g., Evangelical Christians especially). He made the right decision.
Craig,
Ooga-Booga? That you may believe God is pure fantasy is allowed, only as far as you choose to deny the authoritive and defining evidence that God informs us we may know that He alone is God. It goes beyond any supposed relevance that may be suggested by one or the other of any other declaration of faith, and is unique to the Jewish Writings alone.
The answer is in the Book of Isaiah.
I love the book of Isaiah. Some of my favorite passages:
Isaiah 9:6-7 and Isaiah 53 : )
You only briefly touched on a sore subject to me, but I’m finally going to ask the question.
I’m not Christian. But that isn’t why I say “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas”.
My question — HOW am I to know whether you are Christian, and thus *expecting* “Merry Christmas” (and offended, perhaps, if you don’t get it) or not. If you are not, “Happy Holidays” is a MUCH more appropriate greeting.
Whether you celebrate Yule, as I do, or any other winter holiday, you do so at approximately the same time as Christmas. Does that, in itself, justify me wishing you a holiday you may or may not celebrate?
JG,
On the contrary, I am a very sincere person. And I sincerely believe that you are a evangelical religious fanatic whose education in theology ended at the 8th grade level. I, on the other hand, studied theology in college and have adapted my Catholic school training to modern concepts of Christian philosophy. You should experiment with Christian thought outside of your Wednesday night Bible study sessions.
Tess,
The difficulties with some folks arise over individual thoughts regarding piety, and in many cases pride. Often, celebratory events such as Christmas are looked at with some disdain, because either they arose out of alleged pagan practices, or are held in contempt for other causes.
You just continue doing what you are doing and let those who take offense be offended, and those who are not, appreciate your thoughtfulness.
Christmas is the celebration of Christs birth. That He was not born in winter is common as an opinion. However, Awassi sheep do lamb in November, December in Israel, and as late as March. That the shepherds would have been out is indeed a possibility, so arguing over such a thing is a triviality. It is often remarked that taxing would not have been done when harsh conditions existed so winter months are somewhat suspect. Mary and Joseph were traveling to be taxed at the time they were housed in the crib of the stable. I cannot remark on that because I know nothing of the climate of Israel or the regions roundabout.
Most often, persons who wish to exhibit aires of superiority and spiritual pride, make issue of whether Christ was born in winter or spring. They celebrate nothing, not even their own birthdays or those of their children. On a personal level, I believe it is wonderful to celebrate Christs birth, but caution that we must not lose sight of significance of the event, lost in the trappings of “things of the world”. Gift giving and the receipt of them is certainly enjoyable, but should not diminish our reverence for God’s gift to us.
The whole of the Christmas season for me is wrapped up in two thing things for which I am most thankful. The first is found in John 12, and the second in Luke 24.
I always greet with “Merry Christmas”. If persons are offended, they probably have a tendancy to be unpleasant for any variety of reasons.
I encourage you Tess to read the Bible, both the Old and New Testaments. You needn’t be dissuaded because of opinions that suggest controversy. The Bible is many things, history, a tapestry of human acts, both righteous and unrighteous, failure, failings, and great accomplishments, but principally, a testament of God’s unfailing love for us.
Do not be too quick to disregard it. I am amazed often its depth and breadth of informing us, even in the least of things, an example of which would be,”And He was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow”, recalling the Lord during the storm which troubled the disciples. Mark 4:38 Such attention to detail amazes me and makes it so much more human in its presentation, yet the Word is from God.
Ouch!!
This thread is shaping up as the kernel of an epic screen play: “Christians vs Mormans – Redemption”.
Wow. Not an answer, but a bible lesson! I was raised Catholic, but left dozens of years ago when I realized that despite the holy water, I had never believed in its precepts.
There are more holidays in winter than just Christmas. To recognize only one is intolerant of others’ beliefs.
But we’re all different, and that’s good.
JG,
http://www.answersingenesis.org
As long as we’re getting all evangelically around here:
http://www.catholicscomehome.org/
Thanks Patty.
Actually not, Tim, Joseph Smith threw the guantlet down when he declared,
“I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; and those professors were all corrupt” Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith 2:19.
And, Orson Pratt said:
“All other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives Baptism or the Lord’s Supper from their hands will highly offend God; for He looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people. Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the whore of Babylon.” Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255. (Pratt was the first mormon to enter Salt Lake Valley)
It is an unfortunate reality that many persons are offended by that which is nonetheless true. Mormonism attacked all as the “whore of Babylon”, while stating that the Bible had been corrupted and of no discernable value.
“I believe the Bible as it read WHEN it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests HAVE COMMITTED MANY ERRORS”. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith Section 6 p.327 (Why the Bible is held suspect by mormons today)
“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” History of the Church, Vol. 4, pg. 461 (you can decide for yourself what “any other book” that might be)
So no, it is not Christians versus the mormons. Let the mormons take responsibility for themselves and their actions and those of their prophet.
” For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid , which is Jesus Christ”.
Dave, I am assuming that were I to become catholic I would be saved, or just better saved, or I would be righteous or perhaps more righteous? Just a question.
I am not being disrespectful. I had a catholic priest tell my wife one time she really didn’t need to read or know the Bible, just be open to the spirit. Seriously, this actually occurred.
Ignorance of the Bible is a grievous fault and we suffer the consequences for our failure. Not only ignorance, but also our failure in responding to its precepts and ordering our lives as encouraged in Ephesians 2
She was raised in the catholic church and my family for years past were predominately catholic. I never had much interest in it though like Tess, never felt compelled to become further involved or remain under its influence.
I am not maverick but do hold to this one tenet which has served both my wife and I well, the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible reveals Christ to us.
The model for my self and my wife therefore is that as found in Acts 17. There is actually an instruction in proverbs that is a reliable guide to be followed, and that is what we choose to do.
I am not diminishing all else in the Bible, by emphasizing those two citations. The Bible must all be read with thoughtful consideration, and then applied to our lives.
Tess,
What is it you are remarking about when you say a “sore subject” for me?
JG,
I never denied the existence of God. I am a Mason (is that another cult?), how could I possibly deny the existence of God? You should not put words in my mouth. I strongly believe in Freedom of Religion and I resent it when others, especially on the so-called Christian Right, flagrantly ignore it. That’s why agree that Newt was right to can Craig Bergman.
JG,
I’m not here to be an apologist for bad priests. There are plenty of those. However, a Bible without Tradition is useless. Tradition provides the framework within which the Bible can be interpreted in an orthodox manner. Without that framework, we’re just folks spiraling into schism and away from the Faith. First Ted doesn’t agree with his church, so he starts one more to his liking. Fred, who attends Ted’s church, doesn’t like a sermon, and he starts the First Free-Will Tabernacle of Fred. Jack, a convert to the Fredian Tabernacle, gets into a fight in a Grounds and Maintenance Committee meeting with Elder Bob, and says to heck with it all, and starts Tall Fescue Deliverance Temple of the Sabbath. Joe, who has been with the Temple since its founding (he and Jack alternated weeks in the Summer Mowing Rotation at the Tabernacle), thinks, “Maybe I should have a few more wives. After all, it’s Biblical.” Then an Angel of the Lord shows him a few golden plaques which reinforce his pre-conceived, Biblical notions, and voila, Mormonism.
@Patty, yes I have been following AiG for quite a while. Wonderful work.
As for the polytheism debate, I have spoken with many Mormons who insist sincerely that their religion is as monotheistic as Judaism. 95% of them are unaware of JS’s teaching on the subject.
That the BoM plagiarizes passages from the KJV is not a big deal to me at all. It is quite easy to argue that, since the Bible was inspired AND the BoM was inspired, of course there would be similar passages from the same author (God).
What should be more embarrassing is “God’s” (Joseph Smith’s) absolutely abhorrent usage of Jacobean English (that is, English in the King James style). Pronoun disagreements throughout, and poor inflections and conjugations on verbs run rampant (in the original 1830 version). Never mind that, unless JS believed Jacobean English was an “inspired” language like “reformed Egyptian”, there was no reason to translate it into that style unless one wanted it to SEEM like the Bible.
JG – I speak of people who criticize the use of the all-encompassing “Happy Holidays” instead of the more-limiting “Merry Christmas”.
Isn’t good wishes between people of infinitely more importance?
Craig,
You said all of it is based in pure fantasy. If that is not what you meant, don’t say it. By your own definition, the masons are a cult. Idid not put words into your mouth, just reiterated what I believe you clearly stated.
“All of it is pure fantasy”.
You are too easily offended.
Your words are charged, “strongly”, “resent”, “flagrently” and why should I have to answer you whether the masons are a cult or not? Had it been a concern to you, you possibly would have satisfied yourself as to that question before joining.
Yes, it is a cult. Essentially, it is a secret society and it’s mysteries are only available to initiates. Mormonism drew heavily on masonic ritual and certain temple ceremonies derive from practices of the masonic tradition.
Andrew,
We support AIG when we can. Yes, they do wonderful work! We’ve been to the Creation Museum. I highly recommend it. You need to spend two days there so you can take your time through the exhibits. The planetarium show is fantastic.
Andrew and JG,
I hope you and your families have a wonderful Christmas celebration! Keep contending for the Faith. 1 Peter 3:15
Merry Christmas!!!
Christmas is the perfect time for an informed and thoughtful – as well as passionate – discussion of faith issues.
Thanks for getting us started, Shaun.
As for me, I know and respect many men and women of the Mormon faith. From a religious stand point, we have significant theological disagreements about the nature of God and how God goes about redeeming wayward people. Some of those theological disagreements have already been outlined here.
From a political standpoint however, I do not make decisions about who to support for political office based primarily on theology. Principles, character, sound judgment and positions on issues inform how I vote. I have often said that were Romney a better Mormon (in the sense of his politics being more consistent with the principles of his faith), I would be interested in supporting him for the nomination, because the Mormon faith has quite clear implications for certain issues – issues where Romney has flip-flopped.
In short, my political support or personal friendship with someone are not dependent on whether I agree with their theology. As an evangelical Christian, I have supported people from a wide variety of faiths (Mormons, Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Protestants, etc) for political office and expect I will do so in the future.
Tess,
Thoughtfulness, care, and concern, are very important in our consideration of others. But most important, the knowledge that we are eternal beings accountable to the God of nature and natures God, requires we do so intelligently and with compassion. Not everyone is open or agreeable to personal responsibility to the Creator and considerable effort is made to diminish any responsibility they might be thought to have. This can be done in any number of ways, but most frequently begins with the word “I”, and is followed up by accusation of one form or another.
Persons are free to guide their lives as they see fit, but all decisions they may make in doing so, may not be in their best interests and result in harm both to themselves and those they should love the most.
Christ’s life was not “self guided”, but as the physical representative of God in earthly form, He did all as He knew the Father did and would do. That was consistently His testimony. He never said, “That I do”, without affirming it was as the Father had taught Him, or sent Him to perform a certain thing.
So Tess, to answer your question, no. Although good wishes may be well intentioned, often it is to allow us to avoid uncomfortable confrontations.
Were you to say “Happy Holidays” to me Tess, I would reply “And to you, Tess, and Merry Christmas”
Both of us then would be considered to have the others interests at heart.
God bless you.
Thank you Patty, a very contemplative, thoughtful and joyous Christmas for you and yours also. I can only imagine the being “sore afraid” reaction of the shepherds when the birth of Christ was announced. These men obviously anticipated and were looking for the Savior. When the announcement was made to them and they saw for themselves Joseph, Mary, and Christ as had been told them, the joy must have been incredible.
Can you imagine the three women’s surprise when they saw the stone rolled away after the crucifixion as we are informed in Matthew 28:8.
It is yet the most marvelous of news we may comprehend and Thomas’ reaction when finding himself before the risen Savior appeals to both the learned and the unlearned, the lawyer, and the Missouri plowboy. Persons of every station of life have knelt before Him even as as Thomas did.
That is why Christmas resonates with me.
JG and all,
One thing that is not permitted in a Masonic Lodge is politics. This blog might adhere to the same thing in reverse. I didn’t say Masonry was I cult. I asked that according to the definitions being bandied about here if that is how others thought. You clearly do.
But I think you’d be wrong in thinking so. Masonry is open to any one of any religion. Members come from many faiths and walks of life. It is not a church. It does not espouse any particular theology, except that the Universe was created by the “Supreme Architect.” I suppose to the extent there is any expressed theology it would Deism.
Nobody on this planet can claim that they, and they alone, are the sole possessors of the Absolute Truth and all knowledge. That is an arrogant affront to everything and everybody. I suppose some would call that Agnostic (do not know) as opposed to the Gnostics (those seeking knowledge.)
Listen, I wish all of you here a Merry Christmas, A Happy Hannukah, Happy Kwanzi, Fun Ramadan or whatever that is, and most of a great Yule Tide Season. (Odd they all fall around the Winter Solstice, don’t you think?)
Craig,
You sentiments are well-stated, but you are arguing with evangelicals who believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. There is no reasoning with them; they reject your logic and offer to pray for your obviously misguided soul. (I have to wonder if JG and his wife consulted 1 Corinthians 7 before they got married?)
My best advice is this: “Cast not pearls before swine.” Proverbs 23:9
Masonry is attractive to initiates precisely because it is amenable to many religions or no religion. But, as with anything, where principles may be denied, they must be replaced by others hostile to those having been disgarded.
From your comments Craig, a mason may be wiccan, or hindu, or a professor of any belief presupposing a “supreme being”, whether it be the “horned god” of the wiccan, or vishnu of the hindu. However, the gaotu of masonic worship services, is not the “One God” of the Bible as may be easily determined. Is the god of the buddhist the god of the Bible? If you say yes, then you do not know the God of the Bible. If you say no, as anyone with a cursory understanding of Judeo-Christian belief must do, then it is affirmed that all masons do not worship the “One God” and simply exchange names as it suits them.
As you remarked earlier above, the “Burning Bush” of the Word of the “True Supreme Architect” of the Universe is regarded as fantasy to you as evidenced by your remarks above. Your obvious contempt demonstrates your hostility to the God of the Jews and Christians both, and explains why the name of Jesus is discouraged from being uttered in masonic lodges in prayerful service.
The practice of masonry as a secret society is an environment a “Christian” cannot continue in and it is for this purpose once it is determined beyond doubt, Christians renounce any affiliation with the masons. You know this to be true, so you are without excuse.
The Christian faith is founded in one thing and one thing alone. It is not by intellect or accomplishment, by the wisdom of this world or anything other thing than this, God raised Christ from the dead, that His name is above all names, and before Him every knee shall bow. Anything else comes from the father of lies.
The very fact too, that the Lord Jesus Christ is considered nothing more than a prophet in these innumerable religions welcomed as such by the masons is irrefutable evidence of masonic deception.
You also know that masonic oaths and emblems figure prominately in the mormon church which is a non-christian cult.
I find it intriguing that Rocky has no reluctance to quote scripture, while as yet he would mock not only believers, but the Word of God itself which plainly informs us we are to make no oaths.
Did you swear or perform an oath Craig? That act in itself is witness that masonic practices are hostile to Christian doctrine and belief and the freewill worship of Christ.
Let those who do not have this knowledge recover themselves by the grace of God and Christ.
JG,
“nor cast pearls before swine” is Matthew 7:6 and not Old Testament.
You fail, Bible thumper. I find it intriguing that those of you who profess to “study” the Bible really don’t know what is in it.
There is a lot of swearing and oath taking at all levels of government, including the President every four years, and to get into the military.
Tim,
I will go so far as to say persons may affirm an oath, as in James 5:12, your answer to be either yes or no.
Rocky, I said nothing about your citation, I only said you are a mocker. Craig, being a member of the masons had to make an oath, actually, a number of them as he progresses through the various degrees. These are all elements of a “secret” society, and the penalties are severe. Any rational person would be offended, being compelled to make such an oath as required of the initiates.
I know precisely where the “pearls ” quote is. In your haste to ridicule me, you neglect to consider that this was an admonition made by Jesus.
Christ and His sayings are the central theme of the New Testament. The whole of His admonition derives out of His sayings to the multitudes, beginning in Matthew Chapter 5 and ending with 7.
Chapter 7 is excellent for the serious person to contemplate for its truths as well the preceeding chapters. I am pleased you referred to it.
You might refresh yourself with Chapter 5 and 6, especially 6:21-23.
Your calling me a “Bible thumper” is dismissive. We both know that.
Which is it you would rather I do? Should I become angry with you or say, “The Lord rebuke you”.
“But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.”. From your citation, all of us who have sworn oaths to uphold the Constitution, for political office, in a court of law, or “On my Honor” as a Boy Scout are “condemned”? If so, that explains a lot of the trouble we are in as we are under active condemnation by God as he rebukes us.
Still time to send a Christmas Card to Bearing Drift at
Bearing Drift
PO Box 16828
Chesapeake, VA 23328
Put $10 in with the card and mail it off.
Or make your check payable to “Virginia Line Media” and send to:
Bearing Drift
PO Box 16828
Chesapeake, VA 23328
Merry Christmas and God bless America.
With Barry in charge , we need ALL the help we can get.
Tim J,
If you look at the context of Matthew 5:34 you would see that section started off with “Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but you shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.’” It is easy to be deceptive when someone makes a false statement by an oath. Apparently there were those who made oaths by heaven, the earth, Jerusalem and their own head as if they were the ultimate authority. Jesus was pointing that they couldn’t make their own hairs white or black. He went on to say let your yes by yes and no be no. In other words, in all our speech we are to be truthful because every word we say is under scrutiny by God.
We could go on with this futile exercise of yours to discredit the Bible. You could literally take every verse out of context and twist it to suit you.
Let me ask you a question. Who is your ultimate authority? Where do you get your belief system? Why does everyone have a belief system? Where does rational thought come from? Those things are immaterial which do not arise from material things. Why are there laws of logic? Why do we have communication and rely on our senses? Why do we see a uniformity of nature and understand that if I drop a brick tomorrow it will fall like it does today? More importantly why is there a universal morality in the sense that everyone knows there is a right and wrong? Every person who expressed an opinion on this thread and even this blog is expressing a right and wrong. Where does that come from and why does it matter? Really!
Every day every human being uses these things which the Biblical worldview, the Bible, explains. Each day human beings demonstrate the Biblical worldview and that they are created in the image of God. Unfortunately many do not want to turn to God through Jesus Christ. Romans 1:18-23.
My, My… a simple question about a quote from JG on James 5:12, and then an observation provokes an extreme reaction by you as apparently I have violated the sanctity your personal religious beliefs that has invited your rebuke and condescension. And then you mount an assault and judge me by stating “this futile exercise of yours to discredit the Bible”, attack and contradict yourself by introducing a mix of rhetorical questions which rely on your context of biblical purity. And then you generalize your attacks to “Every person who expressed and opinion on this thread and even this blog” and then you conclude by holding up Jesus Christ as a shield and threatening those who don’t meet your Biblical test with Romans 1:18-23.
You have demonstrated that you hold in your heart religious hate and intolerance and are in effect conducting a Biblical “Jihad” against those who don’t meet your Biblical purity threshold. And for those who don’t meet this threshold, you proffer judgment and punishment by God: “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.”. I thank the God I grew up with that we are in a virtual blog space because if not, we would constantly looking over our shoulders for Biblical religious extremists like yourself who would don Holy suicide vests and become the incarnation of the “wrath of God” upon those you judge to be afflicted with “godlessness and wickedness”.
Tim J,
Masonic oaths too. These had other than avuncular proscriptions, having your throats cut across, your heart ripped out, and being disemboweled etc, depending upon the various degrees. It is not similar to the commitment a man may make to his wife or in terms of service to his country, or as acknowledgement to an employer.
Perhaps, an excellent example of human failure was Peter’s insistence he would die rather than deny the Lord. More than just a statement, he protested “vehemently” that he would die with Christ. The others too, agreed that they would die with the Lord yet he was abandoned in His trial.
We can be thankful for grace.
As said, a simple yes or no is to be preferred.
Temple oaths of the mormon church followed the example of those stated prior above. They are explained away as having been solemn before the Lord. The ceremonies surrounding them are described not secret but rather sacred (and for this reason not to be shared), to allay any suspicion. That is why the ordinances, aprons, special garments, and other mormon accoutrements are prohibited to be spoken of to the “gentile” which the non-mormon is considered to be.
One of the temple ceremonies not further practiced is the hiring by Lucifer of a Protestant minister to preach to Adam and Eve. That was discontinued around 1990 and acknowledged by the church in a public pronouncement without delving too far into the details. It was reported in the New York Times about the same time.
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon288.htm
Older temple mormons will recognize this, Romney being one of them.
For further consideration see:
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/lds/22.html
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_garments_section1.html
I included the mormon garments because these also, are masonic in origin. Initiates have routinely reported becoming uncomfortable with elements of these endowment ceremonies, yet dismissed their discomfiture by whatever rational best aided them.
There is some argument regarding the sources of influence. It is not the forms of masonry only. luciferian, masonic, wiccan, mormon observances are believed to have their origins out of a “common stream”.
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_templechanges.html#pub_1045634088
I included temple changes because they allude back to the oaths opening this subject.
It would be interesting to hear Romney’s responses
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n2226.cfm
Indeed, if there are occult practices to be warned of this would be the start.
Remember, this is not an attack on the mormon church. It is a response to the gauntlet being thrown down before the Christian church by Joseph Smith as well others. To some here, none of this shall be deemed relevant to anything because of avulsion against anything “religious,” especially the Christian religion which speaks against it.
Tim, why do you believe Patty is “extreme” or filled with “religious hate”? I don’t agree with your assessment of her. She may be passionate, but hardly would that justify calling her hate filled.
I personally know of members of a number of ”non-religious” families, who have suffered heartbreak and confusion because of practices of family members involving drugs or alcohol, or being involved in destructive relationships. They did not hate these loved ones, but continually sought a means to restore them to health and vigor and strengthen failed family relationships. That is not to say they were not resisted or even vilified by those they loved and sought to recover. Yet, they did not hate the object of their concerns.
Interpersonal relationships are difficult at best, especially on threads such as this. I don’t believe it was her intention to anger you.
Martha, the sister of Lazarus, confirmed she believed that Jesus was “the Christ, the Son of God which should come into the world”. 1 John 2:22 and 23 is emphatic that other than what Martha confessed, is to deny Christ, and her belief was grounded in the words of the 2nd Psalm. Isaiah and the book of Revelation require that we understand other than being just a “good man” or “sparked with divinity” that Christ was indeed, God with us, the Eternal. There is just no other conclusion to be reached in view of Isaiah 43, 44, 45, and Hosea 13.
God has always been Triune, the union of the three manifestations of God, yet the “One God” of the Jewish Writings. That Triunity was perfected in the appearance of Christ in the flesh, that we should behold Him, and the continued presence of the Holy Spirit. 1 John 4:2 and 4:3 make clear what is plainly stated in 1 Timothy 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh”. The Tomb is empty only for the significance of the One who lay there.
That is why mormonism is a non-Christian cult.
I have only read this reference to Mr. Gingrich’s aide’s remarks, so all the information I have to go on is what Shaun has written here. From what I see, So Mr. Gingrich had an aide (whose personal theology is unknown) who has a finger on the pulse of some evangelical group (“a thousand pastors”), and is stating the obvious. The fact is, some evangelicals consider Mormonism a cult, and Mormons to be “unsaved.” In fact, I know a few moderates who wouldn’t vote for a Mormon, and some agnostics and atheists who would. What I take issue with is Shaun’s view that “our friend on the Gingrich campaign” was being negative. I believe he was being honest, to the best of his knowledge, and the Romney campaign is certainly already operating under the same assumption.
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