Meanwhile, Outside The Debate…
By Shaun Kenney | Thursday, December 8th, 2011 | Politics, VirginiaThe Virginia Tea Party Patriots Federation is holding a 1 p.m. rally outside the state Capitol to protest the exclusion of numerous candidates based on the qualifications set by event organizers.
As of 12:30 p.m., about 10 people had gathered carrying signs that read “Liberal media — keep out of our primary process,” and “Shame on Allen and Kaine.”
Only 10 people took interest in this? In the beating heart of Radtke’s base of support?
What a damn shame.
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Shaun Kenney is the Chairman of the Fluvanna County Board of Supervisors, former Communications Director for the Republican Party of Virginia, and an active blogger since 2002. Shaun lives in Thomas Jefferson's backyard with his wife, six children, and a modest attempt at a farm in Kents Store, Virginia.
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81 Responses to "Meanwhile, Outside The Debate…"
From the article: “The Virginia Tea Party Patriots Federation is holding a 1 p.m. rally”
And then: “As of 12:30 p.m., about 10 people had gathered”
Chronology is not strong with the author of this piece.
Lol! Nice way to skew numbers! Wow.
If they did only get 10 people, it would only be because they failed to ask people to show up. I wonder if Jamie had her bus sitting nearby?
Shaun, c’mon man. You really think only 10 people would be interested? Too funny.
Shaun,
You obviously don’t understand Tea Party Math. For each one person who showed up, there were one thousand who couldn’t get off work or didn’t get the right time or as Libertarians won’t follow an arbitrary schedule set by any supposed authority. So, by Tea Party Math there were 10,000 supporters there.
Try to get with the program, will you?
This really should not be a tea-party based situation to rally in opposition–every voter including every person at Bearingdrift should have stood up for the primary process we hold so dear which was slighted by the AP and others.
Just because it is neat news or something interesting to blog about does not make the fundamental circumvention of the electoral process correct or supportable.
The RPV should have put their weight into this, those who do not want to see this type of situation go on from a local level to the Presidential election should have spoken up… the shame is on those who allowed this to occur, including Allen’s camp, who now have a great deal of regrets that Allen was allowed to look very weak against Kaine when Allen should have first practiced against this fellow GOP opponents.
does any reader think the whole “all children are winners” attitude that is everywhere in children’s sports or activities is a good thing? I mean, after your child’s little league team beats the sh*t out of an opponent, the opponent gets a trophy?
there are winners & there are losers.
Radtke didn’t win the necessary reqmt to be in the debate. neither did I. & I didn’t protest
Kelly, you hit the nail right on the head. It’s the AP’s party — since when to the commissars tell private citizens who-what-when-where-why-and-how they are to conduct themselves, again?
Doesn’t sound like Tea Party principles to me… or anyone else, for that matter. Which is why the rank-and-file aren’t with the TP leadership in Virginia.
Wait and see.
Shaun: The tea party was protesting the AP and its decision to exclude other candidates. I see no calls to introduce legislation to “force” the AP to do anything. Do you see the irony in blasting the TP for exercising their speech against the AP? Who are YOU to tell the TP that they don’t have a right to their own opinion and to voice that opinion? Does that make you a commissar?
And about the rank-and-file not being with the tea party…who do think is more informed on the issues, generally? The rank-and-file, or the tea party? If you can be honest with yourself, you know the answer to that question (don’t worry, no one will ask you to utter it aloud).
Its all ok though, because voters are leaving the major parties in droves…numbers of Independent voters continues to increase.
You know, somehow when a guy that hides behind a pseudonym lectures the AP on openness in debates… that doesn’t quite hit home, fella.
On the other hand, I get to freely express my opinion anytime I want. Doesn’t mean I get to steal someone else’s soapbox to do it, nor do I have the “right” to it.
That’s called socialism. Guess that’s only bad when it’s not working for the fair-weather patriots.
As for the rank-and-file members of the Tea Party flocking to the Allen standard, let’s talk about the utter failures of the Libertarian Party and the phantom hopes they consistently hold every four years about “independents” rallying to their standard… how’s that working for you guys, eh?
December 7 AP National Presidential Caucus
January 3, Iowa (caucus)
January 10, New Hampshire (primary)
January 21, South Carolina (primary)
January 31, Florida (primary)
February 4, Nevada (caucus)
February 4–11, Maine (caucus)
Is this what happens when Corporations get carte blanche on campaign finance laws?
That’s what happened yesterday in VA.
“independents” rallying to their standard… how’s that working for you guys, eh?
I don’t know about libertarians, but the fact is there wouldn’t be an Allen/Kaine election today but for the GOP failure four years ago to lure the independents to THEIR standard. I would be very careful not to alienate them again if I were you.
If the Tea Party had a credible candidate this wouldn’t be a issue.Radtke can’t put together a team or raise any money.Until she can maybe she should run for something closer to her home like maybe a school board.
Sorry, six years ago.
@Darrell –
At least you’re willing to say “them” rather than “us” — intellectual honesty is a refreshing thing.
Independents, by and large, are the Tea Party of 2009 — the “Rick Santelli” Tea Party that I and about 30% of this country identify with.
The Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, AWOL Patriots that were absent in the dogfights in 2004 vs. Chichester, absent in 2007 against H.B 3202, non-existent when Kaine was pushing his tax hikes in 2008? I have no respect for them… because they have no respect for themselves (at least, not the respect they need to win).
This is why it’s critical to separate the Tea Party movement from the adoptive Tea Party leadership. Too many so-called Tea Party “leaders” are nothing of the sort. They’re self-appointed, on the fringe, and were unable to keep the movement together for long… even though those independents are — as Darrell rightly notes — still out there.
Rocky, let’s talk about establishment math. Math is a prime component in telling time. Let me tell ya, 12:30 pm comes before 1 pm. Those “10 people” were at least a half hour early.
For the establishment people, last time George Allen was fired by Virginians and replaced with a Democrat. How did that work out for ya? How did those big government ways help your party or Virginia.
Shaun maybe you should post some of the many times when the Tea party has lost.Just a idea.
Speaking of math, how’s about some English:
“…about 10 people had gathered…”
As in, the RTD reporter generously gave you guys a Mulligan on the number of people actually there…
Damn.
this “establishment” meme has gotten old. 99% of Republicans, be they young or old, black or white, experienced pols or new to the game, believe in the TEA party motto: “taxed enough already”.
& while I am a Gov/Sen Allen supporter, I will say that many of my friends support him primarily because he can beat Tim Kaine.
…like a rented mule.
Okay, Britt. So tell us how many were there at 1 PM? From the TV coverage I saw on NBC4 Washington, ten was a generous number if you subtracted everyone with a camera or press badge.
Tim Kaine debates George Allen… brought to you by the AP. Let’s see…
1. Take a day off work, drive to Richmond to watch two (being polite here) *seasoned* politicians, carefully recite talking points. Keeping in mind *neither* of them has had one primary vote cast for them yet?
or,
2. Take a day off work, drive to Richmond to stand outside a meaningless debate, protesting that the thing is happening at all?
What a colossal waste. I’ll pass.
Thank you George for this wonderful gift. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/dec/7/kaine-hits-allen-over-bullying-in-first-virginia-d/
So George, are birth control pills contraceptives or are they used after conception?
Shaun, how about we talk spinning and skewing. Like counting before the meeting or claiming the RTD or AP loves Radtke enough to give her a mulligan.
Actually, I would have probably driven to Richmond if I was asked.
Kelly, I won’t stop using the word “establishment”.
Turbo, stop giving George Allen a hard time about the contraceptive thing. If he messes up the contraceptive thing he can always go to “Plan B”. He could even ask his stock broker about it.
Turbo – tell me how any of the candidates running against George Allen can win? What’s the path to victory? I’m legitimately interested.
If you see one, you need to get it out there right now and get those candidates moving in the right direction. If it is highly unlikely that the path exists, then I’d be careful buying into and promoting the liberal spin-cycle.
Yes, keep bashing Tea Party leadership. You know, the ones that are out there, trying to do the heavy lifting. I’m sure it will be a winning strategy. Without leadership, exactly HOW would you organize tea party energy? OH, I get it….they should just be good republicans and fall in line. How silly of me.
Here’s a list of tea party leaders that won their races this election.
Ron Blevins, Smythe County Supervisor
Brian Gorg, Fauquier County School Board
Susan Lascolette, Goochland County Supervisor
John Lumpkins, Jr.,Goochland County School Board
John Moss, Virginia Beach City Council
David Ross, Spotsylvania County Supervisor
Alyson Satterwhite, Prince William County School Board
Mike Shull, Augusta County Supervisor
Ron Stiers, New Kent County Supervisor
Mike Troxel, Robert E.Lee Soil and Water District, Lynchburg City
Jill Turgeon, Loudoun County School Board
Suzanne Volpe, Loudoun County Supervisor
britt: your “establishment” tag on anyone that doesn’t agree with you reminds me of Obama’s class warfare against who he describes as “elite”.
No, Kelley – it’s because you aren’t part of their 99% purity test. You’re either with them or somehow you’re against them. I’ve seen this since I started Bearing Drift in 2004 – and it goes back much further than that.
You may believe in lower taxes, greater freedom, individual liberty, following the Constitution, personal responsibility, deregulation, energy independence, and others – but if you don’t think their candidate can win, well…you’re part of the 1%.
Ivory Soap couldn’t survive the purity test of the Tea Party, and really in Virginia, it boils down to one question:
Do you support Jamie Radtke for Senate against George Allen?
If yes, you’re a conservative. If no, you’re a worthless, moderate, socially conservative establishment hack/thug with no business in the Republican Party, much less the Tea Party movement.
…and Jim’s right. They’re the same sad voices that used to be LP members before TP members, and before that were as silent as stones whenever there was a tax fight.
AWOL patriots, all.
Is it any wonder that congress is polling lower and lower?
JR said: “Turbo – tell me how any of the candidates running against George Allen can win? What’s the path to victory? I’m legitimately interested.” JR, the decision has been made and Allen is the challenger to Kaine already.. let the fight continue.
“If you see one, you need to get it out there right now and get those candidates moving in the right direction. If it is highly unlikely that the path exists, then I’d be careful buying into and promoting the liberal spin-cycle.” JR, George Allen is the elephant in the room and he is sucking most of the oxygen out for upstart candidates. Donner, Radtke, McCormick and Jackson do not deserve to debate Allen, Virginians do. The path to taking our best shot at the dem candidate begins after We The People decide who WE want to represent us. THAT IS the path. As for liberal spin, we got that from Jeffersonian Geroge Allen for 6 years JR. Your Buddy George Allen is lucky to have a blog this vital to the state pulling for him this early in the primary and I regret that you display such utter contempt for the primary process by denigrating 4 of the 5 challengers because they dont have the name ID or did not pay their dues as sitting pols..
Kelly, I do not call everyone I disagree with “establishment”. Your not liking that word doesn’t change anything. And no, JR, it doesn’t have to do with purity. If George Allen was even near to having a conservative record in the senate, I would be supporting him. Facts are facts. Why the heck does Kaine have the nerve to call out George Allen on that exact thing if he’s so unlike what we say he is? You guys are blindly chugging the team kool-aid and George Allen’s horrible record be damned. You love him unconditionally.
And no Shaun, you are wrong yet again. You can’t even function in the Tea Party unless you can accept working with people with some differences on issues. I don’t agree with Radtke or Cuccinelli on everything. Doesn’t seem to be a problem. So you purity card is bunk. Allen isn’t conservative.
You got another thing wrong. I am a current Libertarian member and Tea Partier. On tax issues you are wrong. I was active fighting the “yes” campaign along. I was very active against the HRTA and THAT is archived multiple articles in this blog. I have gone up against Mike Barrett on Mark Warner raise taxes emergency fake and defended on this blog for you to read, Jim Gilmore. Yes, I called McDonnell out on HRTA and his war on oral sex. After his surprisingly good performance as a conservative governor, I’m a big fan of his, now. So again, the facts are against you. You guys don’t care. You sold your souls and the facts don’t matter.
When you guys realize George Allen can’t win and start backing Jamie Radtke, Tim Kaine will lose to her. Of course the Dems want Allen! They know that is their best hope for victory.
I have been pointing out the obvious along with many others here. You don’t care. Kaine calls out Allen on what we said he would. You still got that “Allen religion”. Allen looks really bad and out of touch on how contraceptives work. How do you think that will make him look to women voters? Men even. Maybe Jamie can explain contraception to him? We TOLD YOU he would gaffe! You didn’t listen then and you don’t care now. This is a GOP “establishment” suicide run taking the rest of the party with it. You don’t care. Blind loyalty to people not even conservative enough to carry your laundry.
I may throw out “establishment” for your supporting this guy without reservation, but I never said you (Shaun and JR) are not conservative. I consider you both to be conservative. That includes the differences I often seem to have with Shaun for some reason. Your voting records would have put George Allen’s to shame.
With George Allen the facts are against you. I can only hope the “establishment” wakes up soon and realize that George Allen doesn’t deserve another shot and isn’t even a good candidate EVEN WITH huge name ID and initial fundraising.
Frankly, Shaun, the Republican Party could use some purity. If they had any, this thread wouldn’t be happening now. There wouldn’t have been a need for the Tea Party movement at all, but for a Republican Party so bent on “reaching across the aisle” to those precious Indys they couldn’t see what a disaster-in-waiting John McCain’s candidacy was.
I, like most other Tea-Partiers-to-be I know, held my nose and voted for the guy, because we knew it was the proverbial gun-to-the-head if we didn’t. And what did we get for that grand compromise of principles? A committed Marxist elected to the office of POTUS, who in turn has elevated despotic cronies to positions of un-imaginable power and influence.
Flash forward to 2012… you (and others) routinely bash any poster identifying as “Tea Party” here as feckless, and somehow less than reasonable if they don’t jump right on board George Allen’s bandwagon six months out from a primary.
I’m sure you’ll scoff at these remarks with your usual chewing on lemons fashion, but if Republicans want control of the U.S. Senate, they had best figure out what an awfully big gamble it is to put the conservative electorate alone in a voting booth with the memory of what happens when we turn blind eyes to the likes of Allen’s record.
Why is it that when anyone speaks in even the slightest praise of Allen, we’re “sold out” or “establishment” or “blindly chugging the team kool-aid” — just pick your invective?
How can you not see how a rational observer would read that, and think to themselves “wow… talk about unhinged” and move along?
@Edward –
…and yet you know that’s not true, because there are vast numbers of Tea Partiers supporting Allen, supporting Donner, supporting Jackson and McCormick — and yet they too are given all the same abuse as every other non-Radtke supporter.
No one buys it anymore.
Insofar as we conservatives who have been fighting in the trenches for years only to have the johnny-come-lately’s throwing themselves over the trenches into no man’s land only to get gunned down… is it any small wonder why conservatives scoff at the Pollyannish few who scold conservatives within the GOP (and RPV) as something less than conservative?
It takes coalitions to win. Republicans used to be smart about this (remember Reagan?) — John McCain was not that man.
I have yet to see the Tea Party candidate that can put together 50% + 1 in Virginia… other than Cuccinelli — who was “Tea Party before Tea Party was cool” — and Allen.
Radtke cannot win against Kaine. No poll in the world says she can. Radtke will *never* win with the staff and supporters currently running the show. Tea Partiers have been driven away, pro-lifers have been driven away, social conservatives have been driven away, gunnies have been driven away… how many organizations have to be turned off before we realize that Radtke’s reputation is being traded in for a paycheck?
Jamie’s a good friend and always will be… but those of us who see the scam know that she is being taken for a ride. Frankly, it just makes me angry to see it happen.
There are not vast numbers of Tea Partiers supporting Allen. Of that group of less than 100 Tea Partiers for Allen there are indeed genuine real Tea Partiers.
Shaun, you say we abuse them. Not true. Sara and I have been in some strong disagreements, but I have always made an effort to say that while I won’t budge on my support for Jamie Radtke, I appreciate all that she (Sara) has done for the movement. The start is always the hardest part. She is a patriot even if she is wrong on Jamie. You also have Coby Dillard that was featured highly on that list of endorsements. I made an effort to let him know that my respect for hiim had not diminished despite his decision to so publicly back Allen. I also defended him on Red State Virginia. They called him “establishment”. Coby has credentials. He has gone against the “establishment”. I’m not ditching Coby just because we differ on this race. I think highly of him. I love BD. I’m not leaving just because you and JR are nuts on this race. So, here again, the facts are against you.
So, tell me Shaun, what were Newt Gingrich’s polling numbers not long ago? Single digits? Unable to make that AP cut off? What about Herman Kaine? What about John McCain before he won the last nomination?
Let’s talk about 50% +1. How did George Allen do last time? Let’s talk about coalitions. George Allen has a coalition of Establishment and people that have personal or organizational axes to grind with Jamie.
Jamie has the Religious Right, libertarians, Ron Paul Republicans, and Tea Partiers. She will also have Establishment Republicans as soon as they realize George Allen is too flawed a candidate and can’t win.
Great stuff Edward!!!
Britt,
As usual, you have changed the subject when anyone asked an inconvenient question. How many TP protesters were there at 1 PM?
You have read me wrong Shaun. My post didn’t register any support for Ms. Radtke or any other candidate. Of the current field, I favor E.W. Jackson over her, but either of those two would be preferable to (Fmr)Gov. Allen. I do not feel the same way about either Mr. Donner, or Mr. McCormick.
For the record, I’m Vice-President of a Tea Party group that was expelled from the State Tea Party Federation while it was still under Jamie’s Chairladyship. Even that doesn’t change my opinion; that Jamie understands the principles of Liberty, and has a clear idea of what role Gov’t is supposed to play in our lives. For that reason, if she were to get the nomination, (which I freely admit doesn’t seem likely) I wouldn’t have to think twice about casting a vote for her. I simply can’t say the same for Allen. That’s not to say I won’t vote for Allen, mind you, or even that I would advise others not to… I would consider that strategy to be suicidal. But I cannot, and will not support his candidacy in this primary so long as there is a candidate in it I think better exemplifies what I believe.
Additionally, I find this notion that (fmr) Gov. Kaine has achieved electoral invincibility to be silly. If it truly is the case we can’t defeat his liberal case on every count, then we deserve to lose.
Ah Britt. Love ya, brother
You are Jamie’s greatest asset, I kid you not.
In the field of engineering we think in numbers. What would this primary look like if vector algebraic techniques were applied?
In 3D space, the amount of disagreement between candidates may be determined by calculating the vector distance between their relative positions. The method is simple.. determine the mathematical distance between the individuals on each (orthogonal) issue, square them, add the squared values for all issues, and take the square-root. The answer is the absolute (relative) distance, politically speaking, between the parties in a high order political space. The “dot product” of the vectors determines their commonality and indicates the overlap of interests between them and the sign of the dot product gives some indication of whether they would be comfortable with embracing each other’s positions. Individuals with a very small dot product might have little to agree or disagree about since they share few common political interests. It is interesting to speculate what a cross product might yield.. a candidate that holds positions described by the cross product vector of 5 different individuals would have managed to proclaim positions that don’t concern any of them!
Vector addition, subtraction and averaging might be useful in determining the ultimate positions held by candidates and statistically significant political groups. A 3D vector field would describe the “force” on an individual’s political views. Whether partial derivatives could be calculated is questionable given the difficulty of assigning anything approaching accurate values. Perhaps a “lumpy” geometry, something akin to Boolean geometry is indicated for handling the discrete nature of political views. For now we are stuck with fuzzy logic.
Thank God for the tea party, they sure purified the republican party. Now that the loose nuts are gone over to the tea party the republicans can once again get some things done.
Keep it up Tom.. the nightmare scenario is the 3rd party vector.. The dem primary challengers are also in the fight for new leadership in Va.
If the “anti-Allen” coalition would coalesce their support around Tim Donner, then I’d eagerly cover this race as a primary. Unfortunately, that will never happen. So, the four folks still running will still divide the resources, energy, and enthusiasm due to high egos and low common sense…and Allen will cruise to victory.
Since it’s clear no agreement is going to be reached anytime soon, there’s no chance for victory for the also rans…which means, for me, anyway, I’m focusing on the clear Republican opponent, Tim Kaine, while attempting to not hurt the presumptive GOP nominee in any real manner.
If Allen had an opponent like Donner – and only Donner – our coverage of this race might change.
I say Donner because he’s the only one who has a complete skill set:
1 – Eloquent
2 – Intelligent
3 – Can raise money (and not in debt)
4 – Hardworking
5 – Honest
6 – Experienced
7 – Solid, conservative ideas
8 – Not backed by people with a vendetta
9 – Has a decent, proactive campaign staff
10 – Doesn’t exaggerate
11 – And doesn’t incessantly attack his other primary opponents – he’s running on his own merits and ideas, not tearing down others.
It takes more guts to fight for conservatism within the RPV than to snipe at Republicans from the TEA Party sidelines.
JR, you go right ahead and vote for the lesser of two big government blowhard politician$. Kaine sucks, Allen sucks less. They both suck yet they delight the media with big ad budgets. The 2-party process is little more than a sham for fulfilling the wishes of mealy mouthed politicians corporate donors.
Is it any wonder a reality show host is scaring the crapola out of the potus candidates? Same problem, different election.. the alpha candidates are taking this all the way down into the gutter.
When Radtke and Donner are showing more common sense than the experienced establishment candidate, it’s time to re-evaluate your strategy. Both of them could lay Allen bare in one Lincoln-Douglass style debate each.
And this is the problem I see with Radtke, she seems much more concerned with destroying Allen then she is with either destroying Kaine or getting herself elected.
The Commonwealth is critical to Obama’s re-election. For that reason, he is going to put OFA/SEIU/ACORN & every other liberal group on the ground here. He is going to pour money into Virginia. Kaine will benefit (in liberal areas) from this largesse.
I don’t see how Jamie Radtke can raise the money to even get in this game.
So, Tom and Kelley, Would you prefer Allen, Donner or Radtke lose to Kaine? Pick one. Yes, its that bad and yes that WILL happen if you keep on throwing TP activists under the bus.
The larger question is will the 3rd party threat come from the left, right or both.
If job #1 is the dem loses you people damn well better heal these divisions NOW. TP independents are not dividing republicans, they are simply fed up with status quo politics as usual and closing ranks with conservatives. The common man and woman who vote R and or Conservative are not all united. If you want to proceed down the road we are on now with the intention to motivate more R’s than D’s to vote R in the polling booth’s across the state then get out of your glass houses and demand the candidates ALL participate in primary debates with each other.
You see what the Allen people are trying to do:
Jamie Radtke can’t win they say, yet they can’t stop talking about her, knocking her campaign or tearing THEIR PRIMARY OPPONENT like they complain she and her supporters do.
They say Allen has already been coronated and yet, here they go again back to the divide and conquer technique. Always trying to frame the question of who is running for 2nd place. They’re so concerned about 2nd place? Why? They have their polls. Why care. For SOME REASON, they can’t stop fighting what they claim is an already beaten opponent.
Then they put out the fundraising. The fact Radtke has pulled in hundreds of thousands of dollars from large number of small dollar donors (grass roots) despite Allen’s name ID, existing infrasructure, and starting fund raising advantage should be concerning. She shouldn’t have raised as much as she has. And don’t be so silly to think that when she wins the nomination that the money won’t be coming in. You know it will. Especially if the backers see a chance to fund a very smart Republican that Jamie Radtke that can actually use the Obama economy and big government policies against Tim Kaine. George Allen can’t do it effectively. As soon as he starts, Kaine throws out the big spending hypocrite card just like I told you he would for a long time now. But…..you don’t care. But you might talk about it if you thought Donner had a shot at 2nd place? Hillarious. Sounds like your starting to see what is wrong with George Allen. Thank goodness.
Exactly Britt. Its fun to tune in to see the “Why Radtke sucks” post of the week, usually littered with anti-tea party strawman argumentation, or at the very least combative fabrications. If she’s so inconsequential, why does everyone keep talking about her?
Jamie Radtke people please tell me how Radtke could defeat Tim Kaine ? She is over 40k in debt,doesn’t have a team of volunteers caple of pulling off a win in a statewide race.How can a statewide candidate claim to be the most conservative candidate when they are over 40k in debt ?
Being conservative and being in campaign debt are not one and the same unless you are in the tank for an established candidate with high name ID and easy dorporate donor funds rolling in.
Could you tell me how Allen could defeat Kaine with his record of spending that is anything but conservative? Tim Kaine will not have to pander for votes or money, he has the obama machine in his hip pocket and Soros in the bag. The conservative moniker so painfully does not fit George Allen nand the libs are merely exploiting Allens record. They need not make anything up, the worst stuff is all true and on the record.
Tim Kaine is going to make George Allen deny and obfuscate thew way he did through the campaign. I called a friend who works on Allens campaign and took my Radtke hat off and asked him to look at the big picture and see the risk that participating at this debate puts all republicans in as a whole.. We disagreed, I was proven right, the campaign ad fodder from that debate will be wrapped around the Allen the California transplant as tight as pigskin over the ball.
If I was Allen some heads would roll for allowiong this blunder. See yall in June.
I can see there this is going.
George Allen will get close to victory, but not win. Then this will be “the tea parties fault” for not getting fully behind Allen. Yes, the same tea party that enjoys heaping spoonfuls of derision from many folks in the RPV (as clearly evidenced in the state central committee meeting). You can see the disdain here in these comments.
Another outcome: Jamie wins the nomination, then loses to Kaine. Of course the RPV and “establishment” republicans (please excuse my indulgence here) won’t fully support Radtke, and this will be painted as “See! We told you that she couldn’t win, its the tea party’s fault for tossing Allen”.
Regardless of who is the republican nominee, if there is a loss, it will be the tea party’s fault. I guarantee it.
That old argument again, Mike? That one was already explained. Going up against resources that a connected George Allen would have means you must be willing to leverage against future campaigns. You should haved read all that in past articles.
What you want her to stop? Just let Allen win? Of course you do.
And you guys never try to tear down Jamie and her campaign, right? You’re just about how wonderful a choice George Allen is? Good one.
Yes, you feel the need to attempt to provoke infighting on her staff because she issn’t a threat, right?
You guys try awfully hard for a contest you say is already over.
And don’t worry, Mike. As I already said, when the Establishment realizes George Allen can’t win, fund raising for Radtke will be easily had. She will save you from TimKaine. She will put an end to a Democrat making fun of how much of a big government/big spender George Allen is.
supposing Radtke did indeed get the nomination? There is alot of national money that will not come to her as many might not think she could defeat Tim Kaine. That national money might go to other Senate races, Congressional races or anti-Obama PACs.
Just because GFA has raised, or will raise, alot of money does not transfer to another who might be the nominee.
The question becomes, then, that if Allen does manage to win the nomination, will the other GOP candidates endorse him?
Or insert your own winner: “XXXXXX” wins, will the others endorse him or her?
Kelley, If Radtke wins the RPV will have to host a come to jesus meeting and look inwards.
People are hurting. They are fed up. They do not trust government. They know that politicians stick it too them. They know they pay way too much in taxes for things they did not ask for and do not want. They will know via dem funded advertising that they do not want the status quo again. Call the opposition what you want, Allen set this wheel in motion with the dem/AP debate and gave the dem political establishment the gift that will give for the remainder of the primary. Don’t you people see this?
No doubt I agree with JR’s assessment which wraps up the one strategy which could challenge Allen for the Primary and with what person. I also agree with Turbo in asking, “Could you tell me how Allen could defeat Kaine with his record of spending that is anything but conservative?”
Allen can pitch any platform to rally the voters he wants, but when it comes down to it, WE, the People, have but one large problem in current and past [federal] Government… a spending problem. As Donner acutely assessed, that is the one thing Allen completely failed to address during the debate–Spending. Why? Because that is also Allen’s way of solving problems which clearly demonstrates that he is somewhat conservative but not fiscally conservative–the trait, value and moral that WE need now.
In addition Allen failed to even address the bridge with Obamacare and its unconstitutional mandate; the massive costs for future generations and the crippling additional burdens on the health care industry which is again, an issue central to true conservatives.
I know first hand that had Allen humbled himself to say, you are correct, I have learned from being on the front lines for 6 years in the US Senate that voting the way I did was not good for our nation, but with confidence I can assure you that I have come to realize we have a spending problem that has to be resolved first and foremost and the cure is not to follow Obama as Kaine pledges to do and attempt to spend our way out of this tragic mess… that would have actually opened serious conversation up to candidates stepping aside and supporting Allen.
However, that is not Allen’s way nor mentality… he is STILL establishment, not fiscally conservative and will do and say whatever it takes to gain votes as needed at that time.
And without he and his team being wise enough to look at the 360 degree picture and feeding him[self] to Kaine, he has all but eliminated the possibility of GOP candidates from pulling out to back him, proving exactly why they all ran in the first place (well, besides Jackson who seems to just be on a book tour). In fact, they now have even more ammunition to say, “See, told you he has not changed.”
Moving forward, Allen is faced with 3 additional debates with his fellow GOP candidates [Allen has committed] and in their vie to hit home that Allen is not electable as a conservative, Kaine will have an advantage. But, this is not the fault of the other GOP candidates… if I, JR, Turbo and others can see this… it is Allen’s crew, or Allen himself who will cripple himself–for the amount of money they are paid, strategic campaign geniuses they are not.
The question becomes, do the other candidates pull out and become just like Allen… go along to get along, and set aside their principles and responsibility to potential conservative voters? And at what cost to whom.
Again, I agree with Turbo… very large mistake on Allen’s part to participate in a general election debate prior to the primary and as I continue to say, at it’s core, disrespectful to our [and his] Primary process here in VA. Allen is, in part, an opportunist who will set aside priniciple (such as thumbing his nose at our primary process) and controlled by those puppeteering him… aka, establishment.
I am not completely an Allen hater, he has been to my home, I consider him a friend outside of politics, etc., but with that debate, he will either be very lucky or Va will have an Obama loving US Senator. That is, unless a miracle occurs and Donner, Radtke, McCormick and Jackson, chose one person as JR pointed out, and all rally behind that one choice NOW to defeat Allen in the Primary. That would be powerful.
Believe it or not, that meeting/Summit was on the table to occur and Donner was the only one who immediately accepted. The other three candidates did not accept.
In Loudoun, we had a historic 9 person sweep of the Board of Supervisors… a key ingredient was that ALL GOP candidates, agreed to meet on a monthly basis up to the election.
I personally call for the four GOP candidates to meet, without their handlers, checking their egos at the door and figure out a way to move forward. Sorry, had a moment of common sense hit me.
Norman, If All the primary candidates agree to debates well before the last minute april and may debates then I would venture to say that could become a possibility. Short of that and its GOP-WW3. NONE of the candidates has much of a chance unless ALL can agree to pull the lever. Debates will allow people to decide and it will enable the candidates to sharpen their skills for taking on the likely dem candidate. Even then, some will not support candidate XXXX no matter what. Some moderates cannot vote for conservatives and vs.
Brian, I second your motion for the four to meet regularly. Good thinking.
No Britt I think Radtke should stay in the race her paid advisors need a job.Radtke is a poor choice for the Tea Party.I have heard her twice and she never once said anything but how bad George Allen is.People don’t want to hear it they want to hear what Radtke plans to do.The Tea Party needs to do alot better job of candidate recruitment.Jim McKelvey would have been a better pick atleast he wouldn’t be 40k in debt.
This is off the path a bit but I wanted to mention it to demonstrate just how deep this whole bogus pre-primary general election debate goes.
We have the actions of the AP, the failure of the RPV to put it’s foot down, George Allen thumbing his nose at the Primary process in light of opportunity, yet most disturbing, the Sorensen Institute’s Bob Gibson (moderator) to place principles above opportunity which flies in the face of our electoral Primary process and what the school of future leaders stands for.
The AP and Allen I can excuse as opportunity, although Allen failed miserably. The RPV likely had hope that Allen would prevail as Allen is the path of least resistance for another “R” which is Mullins only thought, as well, if Allen was successful, it could have ended all thought of others in the GOP challenging him moving forward–now quite the opposite, they all justified their reasoning to prove Allen is not fiscally conservative. But the Sorensen Institute’s participation by Bob Gibson, it’s Executive Director, a place that nurtures principles such as the core basis of our electoral process by establishing “itself as a powerful and effective force for restoring public confidence in our political system,” and then participating in a bi-partisan general election debate prior to the Virginia Primary? Am I wrong in wondering why the pool of people running for office is touted with schmucks? Gibson is absolutely shameful, should in the least apologize yet the board should actually call for his resignation to make a point. How do you restore public confidence by supporting the AP’s actions here?
I wrote, prior to the debate, to Gibson and asked about his participation. He blew it off in response to me with the opinion that Sorensen was not the sponsor and there was no conflict with him as the moderator. Ah, hello, wrong–by accepting the moderator position, you have condoned the actions of the sponsor, the AP, and condone holding a pre-primary general election debate which left the other candidates, candidates which Sorensen attempts to create, in left field. What message did you just send to those in your own school and future young or freshman politicians?
Any thoughts on the message Gibson sends to future political candidates who may attend Sorensen only to be disrespected if opportunity lends its way?
Sorensen is a joke.
Perhaps, but respected and many future politicians strive to have them on their resume and in that Alumni. For posterity, I will be writing to all Sorensen Board members about this conflict of interest and reach out to past students such as Bob Marshall, who could easily have been in this US Senate race and likely would have been slighted along with the rest.
Another old and false argument by Mike McKay. If you want to know what Jamie Radtke wants to do, go to her website or youtube search “Jamie Radtke” and watch her speak. Feel free to look at the older Tea Party stuff, but using the search filters to find the more recent ones is a good idea.
Some of it is outright “I want to” do x. Like what tax reforms she favors, what departments might need closing, etc. If she does mention George Allen voting for the assault weapon ban bil as being negative, use a little common sense and infer that she would have voted against it. It isn’t that hard.
A primary objective in a campaign is to contrast yourself with your opponent. Pointing to George Allen’s non-conservative record and letting you know what she would do is a big part of that.
I hope that helped to clear up those distortions offered by Mike.
Something ironic.. Jamie Radtke will campaign against Allen’s record the same way she campaigns against Kaine’s. Why is that significant?
LOL so true turbo.
This is called “being consistent”. And its refreshing.
Turbo the fact is Jamie Radtke will never be able to campaign against Kaine in order to do that she would have to win the primary.Which will never happen.
Lol, good point, Turbo.
Lets imagine something nice. What if..
Candidate “x” won and appointed his/her political opponent(s) after the election. What position would he/she put them in?
When you finish this mind fu&k exercise, these comments gets dark.
Allen lets us pretend that conscience is merely a barrier to the raw political victory he covets. Let’s be real, later on in the primary he will be totally ruthless. In the mean time we have just seen him debate the former kingpin of the Virginia Obama alliance. Allen wanted to intimidate Tim Kaine and weaken his will to fight for Obama in the primary. But Allen does not just want to weaken Kaine, he wants to win big.. he wants to beat his opponent in a landslide and completely humiliate him to discourage any future challenges and lay claim to rescuing America from another Obama term. Right? George Allen should not concern himself about whether his campaign tactics do not pass any purity test or destroy some lowly constitutional conservative’s reputations.. as long as it helps his campaign, (those skeletons the Allen oppo team is digging deep for better have teeth). So, candidates who dare not respect Allens authoritay will know they deserve to be utterly annihilated. The faster his enemies learn this simple truth, the better. Right?
Doh! It’s post 4-15-2009 and now former Allen employees can play this game, but will they?
Do you think its possible for Radtke or Donner to learn how to win this national election from a master campaigner then throw a wrench at the establishment? Should Team Allen worry about lil ole Radtke coming up with effective above board tactics, or, the tactics of a master campaigner that RPV has no knowledge of?
Just the mere thought of Allen the heavyweight makes one feel intimidated, outmatched, impotent and helpless.. Right?
Crickets.. hehe
Wow, the three Radtke supporters sure are busy. Hope she pays you guys well.
The fact is that up to this point she has not run a campaign that could be successful at almost any level.
Tom maybe they should donate to her campaign.If they all donated $13,333.33 she might be back even.
http://www.youtube.com/user/NoblesTV#p/u/1/_Oa0DK9ZZTU
And Shaun, it was more than 100 people outside protesting not including media while a dozen media outlets interviewed people outside who were not welcome inside without creds.
Doh! Allen voted against Pay as you go restrictions. Since Allen has decided to inject Kaine this early in the primary then lets see what they did not touch at the Dem/AP debate..
From the looks of Radtke’s campaign account she must not believe in pay as you go.
I guess anyone with a mortgage or takes out a business loan isn’t a fiscal conservative?
And way to get busted on the lies about how many people were there.
I am not paid, FYI. I support her freely, because she would make the best Senator.
Why all the lies and exaggerations? You say it is locked for Allen. Feeling insecure?
Mike, after the holidays the general assembly will rollout endorsements for Allen touting select accomplishments in the US senate while complimenting his political career and telling us why Allen should return to the U.S. Senate. This is the same tired old game as before, you scratched my back I’ll scratch yours buddy helping buddy politics. You want more of this just because your guy did not have to boorrow to start a campaign?
Turbo George Allen WILL win the primary.The only qusetion you and the Tea party will have to answer is if you are going to support George Allen or Tim Kaine.
I dispute your end result Mike Mckay, but you are reasonable to fear another Kilgore/Fitch. However, I don’t think that will happen. The fact is despite the AP idiocy, George Allen agreed to RPV debates.
I personally think that if Allen participates in the debates, wins or loses badly, and then wins the primary, the backers of his opponents will feel they can hold their nose and support a GOP win over Kaine rather than “stay home”.
So, Mike McKay, would it be correct to say you would support Jamie Radtke should your crystal ball get it wrong and Radtke wins the primary? You put it out there. I answered. Your turn.
Yes Britt, I would support Jamie Radtke or any of the other candidates if they were to win the primary.
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