NRO: What is a “TINO” Anyway?
By Shaun Kenney | Friday, March 18th, 2011 | Politics
Jim Geraghty has some insight into the new “Tea Party in Name Only” line of thinking from Jamie Radtke, who is eager to show a united front against Tea Party groups either holding out for Bob Marshall or swinging towards George Allen. Needless to say, Geraghty weighed the charge in the balance, and found it… wanting…
Really? If a Virginia conservative prefers Allen — with his lifetime ACU rating of 92, NRA-rated “A,” rated 0 by NARAL, rated 0 by the AFL-CIO, Balanced-Budget-Amendment-backing, rated 100 percent by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, abolished parole as governor, etc. — that somehow renders a person “Tea Party in Name Only”?
Of course, this reaction to the Daily Caller piece isn’t limited to a few. A new blog consisting of mostly Radtke supporters and borrowing heavily from the Red State brand (nice touch, eh?) has chosen to label Bearing Drift as — wait for it — an establishment Republican mouthpiece.
The same Bearing Drift that houses members who spearheaded the charge against HB 3202, criticized and challenged in elections the Chichester tax hike in 2004, called Allen out on macaca, took on sitting chairs at RPV, and endorsed non-establishment candidates in many of the 2010 primary election races — all establishment pros.
I’ll leave out for a second the fact that most of these newbies accusing others of being TINO were somewhere else during these tax fights.
That’s right — they were A.W.O.L. while most of us were in the trenches getting our hands dirty, long before the Tea Party movement was a twinkling in the eye of these newcomers.
I’ll also leave out that many of these characters are not conservatives, but rather libertarians who claim to speak for the entire Tea Party movement in Virginia. They are pro-gay marriage, pro-abortion, pro-drug legalization, and have leveled their sights on social conservatives, which one commentator deems to be the “Christian Taliban” in Virginia.
…which means conservative stalwarts such as Bob Marshall, Ken Cuccinelli, Mark Obenshain, Rob Bell, Steve Martin, Mark Cole, Bill Janis, Kirk Cox, Bill Bolling, Bob McDonnell and a host of other conservatives who have fought this battle for years… are also one of these establishment types.
Worse, they are claiming to be the voice of the Tea Party. And the Tea Party is (1) libertarian, (2) anti-establishment, (3) anti-GOP, and most importantly (4) can only be supporting one candidate — Jamie Radtke.
Huh?
Of course, this isn’t anywhere near the case. Bob Marshall is a great conservative and has been a lodestar in the House of Delegates for years. Bishop Jackson is a friend to every social conservative cause known in Virginia. Corey Stewart (though I profoundly disagree with his solution on illegal immigration) is a 100% pro-life and anti-tax conservative. Are these men TINOs?
George Allen’s record as governor of Virginia was nothing short of outstanding, and while I disagree with some party line votes (Medicare, ethanol, etc.) it’s not going to take long for folks to realize that Allen is the first to recognize that he screwed up… and if his recent appointment of Mike Thomas as campaign manager is any indication, he’s loaded for bear and ready to fix it.
Going back to the NRO piece, Geraghty points out that there is a clear division in the Tea Party between the more experienced voices and the political novitiates:
Thank goodness the Tea Party’s message can be carried by political newcomers and outsiders like four-term state legislator and former Speaker of the Florida House Marco Rubio; Justice Alito clerk, Supreme Court litigant and counsel to Gov. Jon Huntsman Mike Lee; former IRS lawyer and three-term state legislator and three-term House member Michele Bachmann; three-term Congressman and two-term Senator Jim DeMint, and the son of a congressman and leader of an anti-tax organization for 16 years, Rand Paul.
Is Rand Paul a TINO? Rubio? Lee? Bachmann? DeMint?
Let me tell you what a TINO is. TINOs are libertarians cloaking themselves in the small government movement, and bringing the ills of the near-defunct Libertarian Party with them. TINOs seek to push off against those who have fought against the Leviathan… and claim for themselves the mantle of the conservative movement in an effort to co-opt the Tea Party for financial gain.
I know for certain that Jamie Radtke would never align herself with the likes of Kurt Feigel, who advocated sending nooses to public officials and advocated violence as a possible solution for political woes, whose notoriety in Tennessee politics earned an invitation to a one-on-one MMA fight. This man invited people to show up to Tom Perriello’s home… and shortly thereafter, Perriello’s brother discovered cut gas lines.
“I don’t think that there are enough trees or rope in Washington DC to handle all the traitors you would find there.” In a YouTube video, the blogger ominously warns, “I hope it doesn’t come to us having to do what we all think is coming with these guns, but you better be ready if it is.”
Liberals often comment about the stereotype of a Tea Party member: racist, violent, and irrational.
Is this your Tea Party? Because this isn’t my voice in my Tea Party.
I want the most minimal government possible, free minds, free markets, and a free society. 100% pro-life, run and supported fiscal conservatives my entire political career, and have walked the talk as an elected official myself. Am I now a TINO because I don’t square up with the arch-libertarian fringe? Seriously?
The time may very well come when conservatives are going to have to put down the libertarian revolt. They have co-opted the Tea Party and are desperate to buy a candidate in the U.S. Senate race. Beltway insiders urgent to either stamp out or control the Tea Party are making headway into doing precisely that. In Virginia, they are already making their first moves.
Worse, they are perfectly content to push out small government conservatives in the name of the Tea Party — a voice they have not earned and do not have.
Someone is trying to spike the tea.
Guns. Nooses. Cut gas lines. Is that what the Virginia Tea Party is about?
I doubt it. Not with my voice. Not in my Tea Party.
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Shaun Kenney is the Chairman of the Fluvanna County Board of Supervisors, former Communications Director for the Republican Party of Virginia, and an active blogger since 2002. Shaun lives in Thomas Jefferson's backyard with his wife, six children, and a modest attempt at a farm in Kents Store, Virginia.
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Comments
57 Responses to "NRO: What is a “TINO” Anyway?"
Oh, c’mon Shaun, this is unseemly. Trolling for Allen.
You KNOW he is not, nor ever was, remotely pro-life. He is pro-choice; always has been.
And Allen was publicly IN FAVOR of HR3202 (as was McDonnell, which you also know and now overlook).
And I think you’d agree Allen would have beat the drum for TARP I and II like Cantor had he not blown up his re-elect.
Radtke is weak soup, no doubt.
But Allen is fake. An ambitious fake.
And I’m confident you know it.
Ciao
I kinda left this specific to the TINO charge — and I’ll let NRO’s comments on Allen stand for what they are.
Nevertheless, are you or I “establishment types” now that we’re not toeing the line? Because that is what’s being thrown at us now — we’re the “Christian Taliban” in their eyes…
I continue to reserve judgement. But throwing Marshall and others under the bus like this in second person voice or first person in the Daily Caller article)? Poor, poor form…
There is no single voice that speaks for all Tea parties in Va. The Libertarians may haves dreams of co – opting the Tea party as well as the Repubs. ,neither will happen. The reason is the vast majority of Tea Party groups are decentralized and any group that “takes orders’ from another group or individual needs to go back and research the original Tenets of the Tea party movement. You wont have to go back 200 years either.
I forgot to add that 75% to 80% of the Tea Party aligns themselves with social conservatives,according to a study that was presented to us this past Tuesday by Colin Hanna of LFR at the Emergency Conservative Leadership Summit in DC.
@Marshall –
I have to say, the GOP has done a far more invasive job at co-opting some of the national organizations than folks realize… and long may the Tea Party remain independent of the major political parties.
I completely subscribe to the Richard Viguerie “third force” role for the Tea Party — outside, unspoiled, and constantly reminding public officials that it’s OUR money…
Shaun: that might be possible if it were not for the fact that they are all just Republicans. (with the exception, as you note, of your stray libertarian Paulinista).
I don’t know about that SV — there’s a lot of conservatives who just got fed up with the GOP writ large… and are coming back to politics, but not to the Republican Party. Fool me once…
All this having been said, there’s a lot of folks who see this uprising and thing that all of the sudden, people have wrapped themselves in their own personal political ideology. It doesn’t work that way. Tea Parties are filled with conservatives (fiscal and social), libertarians, classical liberals, anarchists, constitutionalists, etc. who are not going to agree on everything… and thus we get into the same problems that have plagued political parties.
The beauty of the Tea Party is that there’s one focus — smaller government. It’s when people insist on small government and X that the Tea Party splinters… as some intend it should. I hope it doesn’t happen that way, but it very well could if folks aren’t absolutely vigilant on who is selling and who is buying in the Tea Party…
rtwing troll, George Allen has a 100% rating with National Right to Life and a 0% rating with NARAL. He championed and signed into law Virginia’s Parental Notification bill. Those are facts.
Yes, he may have expressed an opinion on abortion that isn’t lily white. But his voting record has been consistent on this issue.
But if you don’t think the Tea Party is already splintered in Virginia, toss abortion into the mix.
I am a Libertarian. Libertarians have no wish to take over the Tea Party. It defeats the purpose. The Tea Party (as Shaun even admitted) is made up of conservatives all along the spectrum that differ on various other issues but agree on fiscal conservatism and small government. The Tea Party is an organization with which we can network an co-advocate fiscal conservatism with a united voice.
If we took over the Tea Party, we would lose that! “Taking over” is a BS charge and doesn’t make sense. Thanks for attributing all this power and size to Libertarians, though, Shaun.
Libertarians and like minded Tea Partiers work extremely well with the Religious Right. Shaun also is shoveling crap on many issues. We are against gay marriage, but many of us(myself included) do favor civil unions for gays, but not all. I and many others, to include Ron Paul which Shaun calls Libertarian, are PRO-Life! Though it is not a major issue, and one many of us like to avoid, many Libertarians do favor decriminalization of marijuana and taking the profit out of the drug trade. At least Shaun gets that right, sorta.
Ken Cuccinelli and Bob Marshall are largely admired by both the Tea Party and Libertarians. Libertarians (myself included) went to a Cuccinelli fund raiser hosted by Cary Nunnally in Newport News. Cuccinelli was a rock star at the Tea Party Convention in Richmond which was hosted by Jamie Radtke.
Bob Marshall is great. I don’t agree with every view he has, but I admire what he has done for Virginia. He is so right on so many issues.
It is utter crap that we don’t work along side and admire other conservatives that we disagree with on some issues. Shaun Kenney is just trying to spread mistruth and sew division.
Republicans aren’t trying to co-opt the Tea Party? Lol. Ok. It would be in their interest.
I do have a problem with Fiegel. Shaun is right about that. I do find those tactics to be dispicable. The deal with Perriello was uncalled for. Seems like too many people are into the noose thing. George Allen isn’t apparently the only one.
@Britt –
Now sowing division… this issue regarding whether the only true Tea Party supporters are ones in the bag for Jamie is ripping the movement in two.
For one, Marshall is no establishment conservative, and neither is Stewart, Mizusawa, Jackson, etc.
To paint them in that light? As the “Christian Taliban” in Virginia? Poor form… and if this “wing” of the movement is not taking over (as you claim, Britt), then I look forward to your press release condemning the tactics and the rhetoric.
Will we see this on Monday?
Britt, Shaun…
The NovaTea Party is already co-opted. It is exactly as you warned and described.
I’ve attended every TEA Party event on Tax Day, like the first cold and windy day in the park across from the WhiteHouse, and the September 12th events.
What I’ve seen are members of the public from all political stripes. There were fiscsally conservative democrats there! Lots of independents who’ve seen the tax-increase and spending that broke the camel’s back…and of course, those libertarians. They were the one’s holding the Obama pictures with Nazi Hitler’s likeness super-imposed over it.
The point is, the movement has momentum when all Americans feel represented. It’s a bad dream when the libertarians take it. It’ll fall by the wayside of American Politics like many before it if they don’t cease from poisoning what was a great movement.
I am in no position to issue a press release. I am not on Radtke’s campaign. I do not have a leadership position within the Tea Party. I just consider myself to be a part of the movement and attend events.
Shaun, you are making some very tortured connections. You point to people calling others a TINO that Tea Partiers including Radtke have a good deal of respect for.
You also play at semantics. Sure Marshall is a maverick. One I personally admire, but some on this blog have made the case that he has been in office too long not to be considered “establishment”. The same has been said of Cuccinelli.
In any case, I wouldn’t call any of those a TINO. We all have seen Turbo praise Bert. I did in the 2nd. He is to be admired. The idea that Rand Paul or DeMint being called such is stupid. Radtke in fact has stated that she would want to be a senator in lines of Rand Paul and Jim DeMint.
Christian Taliban? Isn’t that an oxymoron in a way? I understand the context of referring to legislation as Talibanesque. For instance, when AG Bob McDonnell fought so hard to keep oral sex a felony in Virginia, I called that “Taliban”. I don’t apologize for being upset that somebody is so into regulating what my wife and I do in the privacy of our own home. Our relationship with God are personal ones that a governor has no place in. I no longer care to listen to debates of who the purest Christian among us is. “He who is without sin….”
That said Shaun, the vast majority of Christians and Republicans are content to leave me, my wife, and daughter alone to live our lives the best we can. So, in general, I personally condemn the idea of referring to my fellow Christians as “Christian Taliban”. I would agree it is in bad form.
Anyone who has read BD over time has seen me personally insist that Christians also are ENTITLED to their freedom of religion. I personally advocate parental rights to raise their children under the family’s chosen religion. I support school choice. I rail against public schools indoctrinating our children into non-religion. Public schools should be religion neutral, not anti-Christianity or anti-faith.
So, while I reject much of what you said, I will offer that personal statement. I also reiterate my condemnation of what Feigel did. I sincerely hope that he sees how that is wrong and has changed his course. I believe in redemption.
Bulletproofmonk, that is not the case in South Hampton Roads. I had no idea that the Libertarian movement was that strong up there in NOVA. While that is good to hear, taking over that portion of the Tea Party is not. It damages our networking and is every bit as bad as if the Republicans co-opted it. It weakens our collective voice.
Signs that you describe are not appropriate. It is very easy to construct a sign that has shock appeal without stooping to calling our president a nazi. The very nature of what is being done to our country is so shocking, that stooping to the nazi level is not only in poor taste, but lazy and lacking in creativity.
I have always maintained to all of my friends that the Tea Party has the principles of small government, less spending that the Republican Party has stood for. Why is the Tea Party attacking itself? Maybe it’s a way of growth to define itself, like every movement in growth, change and identity. Just make sure you are seen as a viable and reasonable source of change. If you don’t have unity, you won’t survive.
Great post.
I had something up on Jamie over at The Other McCain. I’m still vaguely pro-Allen, but the joy of primaries is getting to know a wide variety of candidates.
Good post Shaun. Radtke isnt ready for prime time. She’s figured out that more than half of the TEA party doesnt support her and so now she’s setting up a circular firing squad. This isnt about furthering the conservative agenda; its about furthering Jamie Radtke. She’s a joke.
Love the TINO line! Kudos to Jamie Radtke on it. TINOs are establishment Republicans (establishment is an attitude, not the length of time in conservative politics), trying to jump on the wave of authentic conservative values found in the tea party spectrum.
It’s always fun to watch people tell the tea party movement how to be “tea party”.
I’m still waiting to see a set of principles from the Tea Party that all Tea Partiers agree with.
What exactly is the Tea Party spectrum? What exactly are “authentic conservative values?”
Brian,
1) Limited Government
2) Fiscally Responsible
3) Free Market Principles
If government was less dictatorial in nature…they do not have to have much of a stance on social issues.
@ Britt ~ double thumbs up!
@Brian ~ I’m not a TP member, but do find kinship w/ the movement. IMO, for all intents/ purposes, the TP functions (at this time) as a rebel faction of the Republican Party, coalescing around a clear cut (and limited) goal – leaving your generation (and your children’s) a future that doesn’t include a maxed out credit card.
Restricted and targeted primary to debt/deficit/spending issues, the TP:
- accepts diverging social policy and individual rights opinions,
- is suspicious of the GOP’s post 2008 self-flagellating mea culpa,
- blames both political groups for the current fiscal crisis.
As a group, the TP’s message to the GOP: “This (fiscal mess) is also your fault; either grow a set and lead … or get out of our way.”
Those in the Tea Party will correct, I trust, if I misstated.
Karen, “TINOs” is a middle school (at best) taunt.
And it does happen to matter that some of those you’d be so quick to brand “establishment” have been fighting for conservative values for more than 30 years.
For one thing, experience tell us that you can’t win with the cute bumper stickers and slogans.
As I feel that no one person can speak of the TP movement, in my opinion, well said Reid, Britt and Jay.
There are a few other things I would like to address with the establishment (or career) politicians as stated with Shaun. He stated that he wondered where we were in the past when he named a few accomplishments over the past 25 years. I do not doubt that he did what he thought was right but his actions allowed Socialist Democrats to roam freely. and finally there was a movement that has stuck.
Most people are not able to spend their waken hours doing politics, the attorney profession has decided to take up the career politicians. Meanwhile, most Tea Party members, in my opinion, is the true middle class because they were out pursuing their passions (or producing something of value), a profession. While working 60+ hour weeks at their profession, the last thing they want to do is get into political debates with career politicians (or attorney’s) who think they know better. So, we plugged away at our careers.
TPer’s do not get paid to sit in a capital building for a month like in Wisconsin, they don’t get paid like Nancy Pelosi pays her “Code Pink” gang to cause chaos around the world and we do not have the time to sit in city council meetings learning something we elect someone else to do…looking out for our own property. We believe in the Republic more than the Democratic option but we have entered into an anarchist…majority taking other people’s property mentality that we have now.
So, it’s not a fair question to ask where we were because we have been here all the time…it’s just that we watched the stupidity from the sidelines. We need to get back to our careers and take care of our neighbors as so many polls have demonstrated so many times about conservatives.
Honestly, if this Tea Party movement fails…and we continue our path, Europe and their massive social and multi-cultural issues will be our direction and that’s a sad thought.
@Michael – If the “establishment” was fighting good enough then we would not be in our current situation and it appeared that “Yes We can” bumper stickers ad slogans worked quite well in the last election. So you may wish to rethink your position.
John, you really think the non-Tea Partiers don’t work? I happen to work three jobs, have a family, and incredibly active in my church, served on my college alumni board for seven years, served in various community associations and more. So you’re seriously out of line suggesting that Shaun (or any of the rest) hasn’t been working for conservative values.
I was around when there were only 8 Republicans in the Virginia senate and the House was the mirror opposite of today. So, spare me.
It would seem that you plugged away with your careers while the rest of us were out there fighting for conservative values. Welcome to the fight.
But we have battle scars, and wisdom gained from experience. That (some) Tea Partiers would dismiss that as being establishment is quite naive and will likely be their downfall.
As for the bumper stickers? That “Yes We Can” gave us what we have today, actually proves my point.
I now understand.
Establishment = inauthentic conservatives.
You can’t make this stuff up folks.
By that logic, Reagan would be a TINO/establishment.
Michael,
I don’t recall saying that “non-Tea Partiers don’t work.” Most Tea Partiers work their asses off and don’t have the time to figure out what our elected officials are doing…especially when we’re being lied to and connived. That’s what I’m talking about…and I referred to it. So, if your part of Code Pink, Wisconsin union or the professional left, than I was talking to you. If not, then I wasn’t.
The “Yes We Can” bumper sticker proves your point? Barrack Obama was elected on an empty promise and fancy slogans and bumper stickers. And he won decisively. So, you can win with “cute bumper stickers and slogans”
I definitely did not say Shaun hasn’t worked for conservative values…quite the contrary. I’m just saying that he isn’t winning. Or your tactics aren’t working.
While we were working our asses off to create that $14 Trillion GDP…that gave Communist politicians the power to buy off their cronies. All along we thought we were losing the battle to foreign entrepreneurs, I now realized that our federal government have been shipping our jobs overseas for some GLOBAL VISION. Good job!
Here comes our belief between a Republic and a Democracy…I shouldn’t need to be be involved in politics to protect my property but we’re now there.
That Tea Partiers were working while the professional politicians were out ruining your country was certainly implied in what you wrote. Sorry if I read that wrong.
But you challenged Shaun and others by implying that they (we) had not been fighting for the values you now claim are “tea party values.” I’m just calling B.S. on that.
As for winning with the bumper stickers. The point remains that we should win with issues.
And the point remains that the Tea Party won’t win on Tea Party issue alone. That is simply naive. If they continue to fight against those they call “establishment Republicans” then they will simply have the same effect as most third party movements. That of electing Democrats.
Tea Partiers do deserve blame for this mess. They deserved blame because they weren’t ripping into Bush and big spending Republicans were in power. They were too busy practicing this “R” is better than a “D” business and let the GOP run wild with our debt. Is Obama worse? Oh, by far. That doesn’t excuse the Republicans though. That doesn’t mean you hold them to the fire for getting it so bad that Americans were willing to roll the dice with Obama.
That’s why the Democrats get away with calling the Tea Party hypocrites. Crickets were chirping and they were doing as you guys suggested. Towing the line with closed mouths. Now Democrats say the Tea Party is only making noise because it is Obama in office. Kinda hard to deflect that.
Yes, there were exceptions. Libertarians were criticizing Bush. In turn we were criticized for not taking on Democrats……..not that they were in power at the time.
I think there is blame to go around for WHY we are in this situation. All I know is George Allen doesn’t deserve another shot. I would rather take my chances on the Tea Party brand of Republicans like Jamie Radtke. We don’t need a repeat of what George Allen got fired for.
DJ – you ARE making it up or simply not getting ‘the point’.
During the Bush years I know that you heard: “Republicans in Congress are spending like Democrats!” For the most part, the GOP leadership (including Reagan) turned collective backs on the “conservative” brand (vis-à-vis fiscal policies/responsibility) until 2008’s election results wake up call.
Other than those that work in the biz – and ‘the base’– the rest of traditionally R voters are NOW much more discerning, on the lookout for signals that GOP leaders are reverting to old, bad habits, and quite happy to smack ‘em again (at the ballot box), if needed. This group is a part of the Tea Party – pissed off private-citizen ex-GOPrs that aren’t real happy about having to come in, knock heads, and clean up the mess ‘the pros’ left.
@Britt ~ you are correct. The real source of blame is to be found in one’s mirror and George is definitely a part of the old guard. “Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me!”
@Michael,
Finally! Let’s talk issues…
1) Fiscally Responsible. Need I say more.
2) Free Market. We have so many laws and restrictions placed on our industry that we cannot produce. They aren’t meant to protect but restrict. Politicians react to whatever stimulus and they don’t know what they’re doing…which has put our country in its current state.
3) Limited Government. Can’t say that the majority of our federal government’s agenda over the last two decades have done anything to curtail an out-of-control government.
As for you and Shaun…not saying that you weren’t fighting for those values and I’m not sure if your trying to disassociate yourself from what Tea Party claims as values but that’s your prerogative. I’m just saying you didn’t do a very good job of it.
The only way the Tea Party will lose is because we have to go against a unified Democrat Party, a corrupt media making false accusations and a dysfunctional political class that feel entitled and superior. It seems that you say that we cannot win on issues while your arguments is everything but.
All establishment Republicans need is do as the media tells them to do and go with the political tide. If it’s in your favor, they win. If not, than the Dems win. Paradigm needs broken.
What is wrong with the Republican Party??!! I’ve been a Republican my entire adult life (actually, a little before) and we didn’t grow that party in Virginia by pigeon-holing every person who perceived him or herself as being a Republican!!! We’ve always had factions, people who disagreed on another’s choice of candidate during the nomination process (nobody is perfect, and nobody makes perfect choices) and, for the sake of the party, came together after (always somebody choking on sour grapes and, unfortunately, always a very few bound and determined to run others out of the party…closet dems perhaps??). You should all be ashamed of yourselves!!!
@Britt and Jay,
I respect your points of view but we need to get away with providing politicians with a way out. This enough blame to go around excuse is way overused…it’s time to call the B.S. The legislation we’re needing to deal with dates back through Clinton and Bush I also.
The Dems used it to pass Financial Reform that gave them complete control of every business under the guise of “enough blame to go around.” That massive control will never be recalled but will be exercised to intimidate corporations and that’s a shame.
@AWCheney, I’ve been a Republican all my life too…and next year I’ll be voting Republican but the Patriot Act, Healthcare, NAFTA and Financial Reform has left a lot to be desired when it comes to legislation.
As each regime exchanges politicians every four to six years and then House members in for life, along with the same appointments from previous administrations. It seems that we’re practicing insanity. Doing the same thing but expecting different results.
It’s time to get some new blood.
John, if those are the only three things that you need to believe in to be considered part of the Tea Party, me and every other Republican would be included.
So how can you have a TINO if the principles are so vague that we all fit?
Brian…good point. As I was answering your question, “I’m still waiting to see a set of principles from the Tea Party that all Tea Partiers agree with.” So I gave you three.
As our country shifts to a nanny state, as the federal government tells us what type of food to eat, banks to use and words to say…then the social issues become more prevalent. So, with such an intrusive government we will need to define our overall objectives.
But the few Constitutional requirements (which is an argument) and a few other requirements, does the federal government need to regulate to that degree? Let me remind you that the responsibilities that the government has now is complete failures…and they campaign on them. (i.e. Department of Education, Immigration, etc.)
Let’s start with some common ground and move from there.
John, I think Jay and I do call out the BS. Sometimes even on the contributors. I like the way Jay politely called DJ out on not getting it. We all know he & Shaun are bright capable guys. They do that on purpose.
I don’t exactly think I have been showing Allen any mercy. I am not leaving him and his record with an “out”. I am leaving a way out for the voters that were fooled before. I’m leaving a way out for SOME Tea Partiers and general Republicans that were silent when the Republicans were a part of our problem. We weren’t feeling the pain back then even though the writing was on the wall. It was easy to ignore it and follow the party leadership(Republican membership). I am simply being intellectually honest in saying many that jump on Obama/Reid/Pelosi, were not vocal at all when Bush & co were doing the same thing.
Brian, you are correct that the vast majority of Republicans would fit in that spectrum. That is why it is so valuable a coalition. You are wrong though in suggesting every Republican would.
Big Government Republicans are not. Mike Barrett has said that he is a moderate Republican. Fine. He would likely agree he is not Tea Party. Those of you that know of Will Sessoms, Republican mayor of Virginia Beach – not a Tea Party values guy.
In the past I would have conssidered G. Allen a TP guy. However, his actions in the Senate are anything but Tea Party. Thus your conflict and your TINO.
@Britt, Completely agree but I feel that government intervention is a great cause of the housing debacle and what do they do…assume more control. That’s the BS I’m talking about.
As for the BS and the voices during Bush…I agree there also. Those voices were not there during that time. Or if they were they could not be overheard over the dead body counts or the illegal war.
@ John Jackson ~ Absolutely! The housing crisis (and Wall Street/Main Street meltdowns) was completely avoidable and 95% Washington-made. Decades of bad lawmaking, overreaching fed domestic policies & political cronyism reduced risk and encouraged markets to behave artificially. And, for the most part, the most criminal offenders (IMO) are still in office, having successfully deflected both blame and responsibility elsewhere.
That was yesterday. The question is – what next/ where do we go from here? My hope is the TP remains the spunky spine and conscience of a new/improved GOP, while continuing to operate separate from (and outside the influence) of the GOP. I have little faith that Republican Party politicians will make tough decisions or unpopular (but right) choices without the safety net that TP support provides.
@AWCheney – You also miss the point. It isn’t about pigeon holing or perfection; it’s about a whole lotta red (and purple) folk wanting be sure that THIS time Republicans in the 112th Congress (and 2012 candidates) keep promises, don’t fold, and get it right! Ashamed? Not!
I keep telling critics that the Tea Party is much too diverse to pigeonhole, so to me the very notion of a “TINO” is absurd. But on the other hand, this is a telling symptom of exactly what I feared would happen: another round of self-defeating factionalism on the right, evidently brought about by people who have become experts in rewriting recent history. Deliciously ironic, and yet tragic.
The broader lesson is that populism and conservatism are like oil and water: without constant agitation, they soon separate. During the Bush-Rove years, “RINOs” were made scapegoats to keep the anti-tax and anti-abortion factions together, and perhaps now “TINOs” will serve a similar function as the agitators pursue their goal of (incoherent) ideological purity. Who will be the last to be voted off the island? Sheesh.
Let’s get to the nutmeat of this discussion right here:
Now Mr. Jackson was nowhere to be found in the 2004 Chichester tax hike fight. Or HB 3203, son of HB 3202, any of the regional government tax fights, etc.
He was AWOL. Like a number of folks making this attack. AWOL.
The bottom line is this. Don’t come talking the talk unless you’ve walked the walk. It wasn’t popular to be an anti-tax conservative just three years ago. All of the sudden, people see the tide moving in the other direction, and everyone gets their Jailhouse Jesus rockin’ for them. No worries — glad you finally made it, folks… although I wonder whether those same voices will wander back into the wilderness when a bad economy doesn’t keep the Leviathan in his box. We all know that most of these folks will drift away… because we’ve seen it happen before…
Now it’s all well and good that these folks have come to join the fight. About time! Welcome aboard, grab a pitchfork, grab a beer, and pick a target. But don’t start jettisoning the conservatives who know how to win campaigns, rally coalitions, and fight the establishment. That’s just plain dumb right there.
As a noted grandfather of the movement repeatedly states concerning the Tea Party, “Where the heck have you guys been?!” For one, we need every small government type out there, because the socialists (and that’s what they are) outnumber us 2-1.
Nevertheless, I’m not going to watch a tiny faction push out good conservatives because they’re not libertarian enough. For claiming to be so-called liberty lovers, these AWOL voices crying “TINO!” sure are control freaks… and that’s the entire point. The Tea Party will not be controlled, nor should it. To start defining who is and who is not a “TINO” is arrogant at best and blind at worst — AWCheney and Andrew Clem are totally right.
“…another round of self-defeating factionalism on the right, evidently brought about by people who have become experts in rewriting recent history.”
Andrew Clem, if this comment was directed my way, please provide more specifics as to “rewritten recent history”?
He ventured forth to bring light to the world. The anointed one’s pilgrimage to the Holy Land is a miracle in action and a blessing to all his faithful followers. And it came to pass, in the eighth year of the reign of the evil Bush the Younger (The Ignorant), when the whole land from the Arabian desert to the shores of the Great Lakes had been laid barren, that a Child appeared in the wilderness.
The Child was blessed in looks and intellect. Scion of a simple family, offspring of a miraculous union, grandson of a typical white person and an African peasant. And yea, as he grew, the Child walked in the path of righteousness, with only the occasional detour into the odd weed and a little blow.
When he was twelve years old, they found him in the temple in the City of Chicago, arguing the finer points of community organisation with the Prophet Jeremiah and the Elders. And the Elders were astonished at what they heard and said among themselves: “Verily, who is this Child that he opens our hearts and minds to the audacity of hope?”
In the great Battles of Caucus and Primary he smote the conniving Hillary, wife of the deposed King Bill the Priapic and their barbarian hordes of Working Class Whites.
@Shaun,
It is ironic that you would use characterize it as being “AWOL” because you’re right, I was AWOL from battling the freedoms that were slowly being taken away from Americans here at home. In 2004, I was in Ecuador and I would eventually retire as a SNCO with 20 years of service to where I was never AWOL.
If you’re familiar with the military, you understand that it operates as a draconian, communist structure. As a service member it was understood but was needed to protect American freedoms.
To experience such a level of control over someone’s life, I was unaware and unable to voice my opposition to the massive controls that were being exerted on my freedoms in the civilian world. But we now have a political class that feels they must use these same draconian methods on a population of 310 million. It cannot be done on that level because the political class does not have the capability or the ability to have such control without devastating affects. Over the past 100 years, nearly every law enacted has exploded into something much larger whether it’s the income tax (1910s), seatbelt law (1990s) or even the healthcare law (2010s) that has suppressed our freedoms. To ignore these ladders of progression is almost irresponsible. All these measures have been implemented in the name of protection either from others or from ourself.
As our discussions get labeled as Libertarian and conservative, I view it more toward the communism side. That’s the degree in which I speak. As I do accept the blame in not protecting these rights at home as my military career whisk me off to different parts of the world and dictated my actions, I ask that you respect my perspective as legitimate and not characterize them as Libertarian, anarchist, McCarthyism or homophobic because our country is headed in that direction, if we’re not already there.
I’ll leave you with this even though it’s being labeled as bogus…as usual, We cannot expect Americans to jump from capitalism to Communism, but we can assist give them small doses of socialism until they one day they wake up to find they have Communism.
It fits so well.
That’s right you Johnny Come Lately TPers. You don’t have the right to complain. You weren’t there when the Republicans ran roughshod over the citizenry. You weren’t there when the party elite staged their coup. And where were you before they burned down the Big Tent and forced you all to meet in an outhouse? Now you have the nerve to protest how a candidate is selected? It’s not as if the taxpayer is paying, and even if they are, So What? You want to change the rules on candidate selection when there isn’t a problem? The ‘right’ candidate always wins, so why are you suspicious of the Grand Ole Party, just because their senior insiders are running campaigns? There’s no conflict. We ARE all Republicans, right? So just go along and most of all. Shut Up! You want a Dem to take the seat?
@ John Jackson ~ Thank you very much for your career service to our country. Agree (or not), with only 21% of current Congress members w/ vet status (118) [compared to 298 in the 96th (’79-’81) and 398 in the 91st Congress (’69-’71)], we need more voices like yours up front.
@ Shaun ~ Feel better with the hissy fit over? “The bottom line is this. Don’t come talking the talk unless you’ve walked the walk.” You are kidding, right?! And here I thought BD was home to somewhat intelligent & civil political dialogue and debate. John offered that – your response OTOH is petty, juvenile, unpolished, churlish and certainly not up to BD blogger standards. Take a breath and try again?
In other words, we struck a nerve here — didn’t we?
If the shoe fits…
This rip-off Red State called Bob McDonnell a lefist, Bolling a RINO but Cuccinelli ‘solid’
Ignorant statements like that go to prove Shaun’s point, if you have no sense of the history involved who are you to try sitting in judgement.
and JD, to respond to your earlier point, I’m not making that up. I’m quoting the former head of the HRTP. Reagan, a converted Democrat, switched to the conservative side and co-opted their values. Which by that logic would make Reagan a TINO and an inauthentic conservative.
See how these petty arguments don’t hold up?
just to make clear, Cuccinelli is awesome, but the establishment isn’t conservative argument fails under that logic, since Cuccinelli worked within the party for a decade before being elected in 2002.
You guys still don’t get it. That’s a shame.
When there are 1,000 page bills, intrusion on our privacy and hanging out with Marxists, there appears to be better things to debate then the use of TINO. Like the issues… Right Michael?
Actually, I was trying to be as gentle as I could. It seemed you guys were getting your feelings hurt. I was hoping to have a good debate but I guess it will need to wait for another day.
Thanks Jay D, I appreciate it.
My concern is with Democrats whose arguments are feeble and promises empty but they seek power. But it appears that a few Republicans wish to practice appeasement.
This whole thing is really pathetic…and from my perspective, it’s sad to see the Tea Party devolve into this argument.
I don’t begrudge the members of the Tea Party who have had little to no participation in politics up until, say, April 2009. That they’re here participating now is good enough for me.
The flip side to that is the whole TINO thing is beyond juvenile. Not only does it force people within both the Tea Party/GOP camps to essentially choose a side (which I would imagine few of them would), it shows no respect to the people who have the political power to enact the policies that the Tea Party supports.
Tea Party conservatives are no less authentic than “establishment” conservatives. And both could mutually benefit each other, if and when both camps decide that fighting each other isn’t helping in the fight against the left.
Shaun ~ Nerves and shoes are just fine, but thanks for asking.
And, as the big guy would say, “There you go again!”
Hate to break the news but … Shaun Kenney doesn’t choose who plays in the GOP schoolyard and Shaun Kenney doesn’t decide who has the right to playing time. THAT, my young friend, will be decided by politicos a bit higher up who will either listen to (and cast votes reflective of) Tea Party patriot groups – or not.
Hate to break it to you as well, but folks are free to speak their mind in free society.
Sorry to see you feel pressure based upon my opinion on the matter… well informed voices tend to have that effect on people (even if they think they are pseudonyms).
@ Shaun ~ Ha! You ARE a pitbull!
But seriously, the name-calling (RHINO, TINO, AWOL, Commie) is beyond silly … as is the Who-Is-the-Real-Conservative-Contest.
The TP shows absolutely zero signs of interest in co-opting the GOP. But even you should understand a bit of ire (from candidate Radtke & TP leaders/members) after the Republican senate candidate self-anoints and dons the TP mantle. They are as proud (and protective) of what they’ve accomplished as you are of your work. Ease up.
Both groups can (and should and will) join together successfully – on the mutually agreeable issues – to elect like-minded representatives. There is strength in numbers. “The enemy of my enemy is my best friend.”
@ DJ ~ If the former head of the HRTP said, “Establishment = inauthentic conservatives”, referring to ALL establishment politicians and candidates, then he/ she is flat out wrong.
@Jay D “TINOs are establishment Republicans trying to jump on the wave of authentic conservative values found in the tea party spectrum.”
There’s not much wiggle-room in a short-sighted, inaccurate statement like that. Of course, we shouldn’t expect much from a group who’s fallen well short in every public relations maneuver they’ve ever tried. Messaging is not their strong suit.
I agree the whole RINO, TINO, establishment thing is childish…but who’s instigating the name-calling? Particularly in Virginia.
No one asked Radtke about a TINO, she made it up on the fly (I hope) At CPAC I witnessed a no-chance AG candidate in Kentucky try prodding the crowd on RINO hunting and RINO season to deafening silence. It’s a two way street of course but the mass is coming from one direction.
@Coby, I’m still waiting to hear something about joining sides to fight the left. All I hear is cleaning up the right, even though no one asked them to.
@DJ,
Allen West, Mike Lee, Marco Rubio and Rand Paul have a pretty damn strong messages.
“I’m still waiting to hear something about joining sides to fight the left. All I hear is cleaning up the right, even though no one asked them to” So, what do you suggest? I thought Jay D made a few good suggestions in uniting fronts.
I’m pretty proud of what the Tea Party movement did in 2010. Things that haven’t been done in American politics for decades.
“George Allen’s record as governor of Virginia was nothing short of outstanding”
What a sad commentary that you had to go there. Last I checked he’s not running for governor.
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