Manassas Burning? EVERYONE (HIS)PANIC!!!
By Shaun Kenney | Tuesday, February 15th, 2011 | Policy, Politics
Delegate Jackson Miller describes the effect Hispanics are having on the town of Manassas:
“My city is in flames right now! What else am I supposed to do but stand up and scream about these atrocities?” Miller (R) said in a speech Monday.
Ouch. I’m sure the tourism bureau is going to appreciate that one.
Let’s review: an ordinance is passed to specifically target Hispanics in Prince William County based on “probable cause” — which by the University of Virginia’s own numbers drove out nearly 8,000 Hispanics from Prince William County, half of whom were AMERICAN CITIZENS who no longer felt comfortable living in Prince William County.
Manassas is burning?
Really?
“My city is falling apart with huge problems in relation to illegal immigration and it is time for us to stop blaming the federal government.”
Ah yes… William Pitt the Younger had a comment on cries such as these. “Necessity is the plea for every infringement upon human freedom,” he said. “It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves.”
Of course, Manassas is not burning, though it has one of the worst foreclosure problems in northern Virginia. And yes, the cost of enforcing laws to sort out Hispanics and figure out which ones are illegal and which ones are just being asked “papers, please?” is ultimately inconsequential.
Instead, we rely on the argument of every nanny state liberal since the dawn of FDR. To hell with federalism, to hell with separation of powers, to hell with whether or not race is a factor… let’s get a posse and mete out some good, old fashioned lynch mob justice — using the legal powers of the Prince William County government, of course.
“I would say if some of this legislation had passed in previous years perhaps some of these tragedies, these atrocities may have been avoided,” Miller said. “I’m sure I’m going to be accused of of using a tragedy for politics and I’m fanning the flames on the immigration debate….(but) there are things we can do to take this in our control.”
Well yes, Delegate Miller. Yes you are using tragedy to political gain. And yes you are fanning the flames of the immigration debate.
And yes… there are things our federal government can do to take this in our control.
But tell me — what is the difference between a local and state government arrogating the prerogatives of the federal government (say: immigration) and the federal government arrogating the perogatives of our state governments (say: health care reform)?
Let’s be clear on this. Manassas is not burning. It’s thriving… or at least it was until the community became so viscerally divided. Yes, there is a housing crisis in Prince William County, but that is due to the enforcement of laws that is costing the locality a fortune and is –sadly — targeting just as many American citizens as it is targeting illegal immigrants.
And for what?
What are we accomplishing here?
The bottom line is that no amount of penalties, restrictions, or ordinances designed to make Hispanics feel “uncomfortable” is going to make the 20 million people here illegally go back to their point of origin. What will it accomplish? Knee-jerk policies will give the nearly 50 million Hispanic Americans common cause with the 20 million illegal immigrants here today — not to mention anyone of a particular ethnic background or a sense of social justice who would equally be targeted as “other” by so called rule-of-law campaigns.
Massive Resistance 2.0 needs to get buried now, immediately and for all time. For one, I am not willing to idly stand by and watch Jose Crow take the place of Jim Crow.
UPDATE: First time I’ve ever been called a race traitor (not that I know what the hell that means). It’s a beautiful thing.
And please don’t confuse me — I don’t for a second believe those voices define others who have a genuine concern in enforcing the borders. I want the borders enforced as well; I’m just not willing to sacrifice the Constitution or a free society in the process.
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Shaun Kenney is the Chairman of the Fluvanna County Board of Supervisors, former Communications Director for the Republican Party of Virginia, and an active blogger since 2002. Shaun lives in Thomas Jefferson's backyard with his wife, six children, and a modest attempt at a farm in Kents Store, Virginia.
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225 Responses to "Manassas Burning? EVERYONE (HIS)PANIC!!!"
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Jason Kenney, Bearing Drift. Bearing Drift said: Web: Manassas Burning? EVERYONE (HIS)PANIC!!! http://bit.ly/hxCQ4A [...]
Well said, Shaun. Illegal immigration is a problem. Hysteria is not a solution. Republicans becoming the new nativist party isn’t good for the GOP or the country in the long run.
I’m sure that Miller was impacted by this past weekend’s shooting of 6 people (3 of whom died) by an illegal alien in Manassas who was ordered deported a decade ago.
Since when did hyperbole become part of the Republican lexicon? “Atrocities…?burning….? In flames…?”
I expect that sort of thing from Democrats (have they said that Republicans have put Big Bird on a rotissere yet – that’s a freebie by the way to any lib who wants to use it), but not from Republicans.
We are not going to address the problems associated with illegal immigration with inflmmatory rhetoric and over-exaggerations.
Riley,
I’m sure he is.
He should also be upset with the Americans who committed this crime in Loudoun:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/11/AR2011021105820.html
Or the American who attempted robbery and committed malicious wounding in Virginia Beach:
http://hamptonroads.com/2011/02/police-make-arrest-beach-home-robbery-shooting
I could go on, but you get the point.
Crime is crime. Ethnicity is not the point.
You’re not willing to idly stand by and watch an effort being made to repel an illegal invasion, Shaun? What are you willing to do? Aid and assist the Invaders? Thanks for letting us know what you really are.
You have no clue what it is like living among illegal aliens. I do. It is horrible. Delegate Miller didn’t have time to mention all of the crimes committed by illegal aliens which include the beating death of an infant, numerous child rapes and a recent car jacking.
I’m sick of it and so is everyone of his constituents. Delegate Miller should be commended for his speech. He has the courage to stand up and do the right thing unlike many liberals and Republicans who are cowards and rightly named RINOs.
Of course, you all live in your upscale (gated neighborhoods) fancy houses and probably benefit from illegal alien labor. Shame on you.
Wait till someone you know is killed or harmed by an illegal alien…yes, it can happen to you.
Do us a favor Shaun. Don’t run for statewide office or this article will come back to haunt you : )
Great post, Shaun!! 100% on spot.
@Patty –
Haunt me? Heck… more than happy to have that debate.
@Advocator –
I’ve always said there was a difference between the honest advocates of our immigration laws, and the racists underneath abusing the movement.
Of course, I said that our federal laws should be enforced. That’s good enough for those who have an honest interest in the debate… but not for all…
Another thing I can’t stand? Using Department of Defense computers to comment on the taxpayer’s dime… is your comment an official position of the DoD, or should I just brush it off as another anonymous comment?
Spoken by someone who doesn’t live here (Manassas). I’ve seen some stupid articles and comments in my time but this article and the comments that agree with it take the prize for idiocy.
I even know some Democrats who want something done about illegal aliens.
Shaun, you and your friends are out of touch, completely.
I suppose it is okay with you to confuse race/ethnicity with behavior? Incredible. You just declared yourself a racist.
Despite this horrible Hispanic crimewave Manassas is suffering from, 2009 marked a ten year LOW in crime (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/25/AR2009032504042.html) after 2008 was a five year low (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/07/AR2008030700044.html). This despite a nearly million dollar cut in the police budget in 2009 and being stretched thin to enforce an illegal immigration policy that was more successful in driving out LEGAL residents than illegal.
Patty, you claim living among illegals is “horrible” and that no one else can possibly know it. Kinda nice to know that Manassas is the center of the illegal immigration universe and that you can tell exactly who is illegal and who is legal, you know, since you’re not making broad brush statements that judge people merely by their race, culture or color of their skin.
…and nah, I didn’t work, eat, sleep, goof off, talk to folks, or got to know Manassas for most of last year or anything.
I wish I had those superpowers of being able to look at a person’s soul… and know if they were a legal or illegal person. What a terrible responsibility that individual must have — like an anti-illegal superhero or something.
Good for you Shaun.
You can take my comments as you like, Traitor.
@Shaun… should we feel worried/concerned that you are outing the IPs of commenters?
Oh great, now I’m a RACE TRAITOR!!!!!!!!
@Ponder –
Nope. Not in the business of outing IPs (at least intentionally — I accidentally did that through an e-mail address once… never again), and especially that of well-worn pseudonyms.
Yet sometimes folks need to be reminded posting anonymously doesn’t mean that people don’t know who they are. There is nothing — NOTHING — that is done anonymously online.
So no — you should not feel worried or concerned as a pseudonym.
Manassas City is an independent city, it is not part of Prince William County so i’m not sure why you keep referencing Prince William.
Also, as a constituent of Del Miller’s I am very proud of my Delegate. His speech very accurately portrayed how we are feeling in Manassas.
Time to pour roto rooter in here so this one can go down..
Traitor? How in the world is this post by Shaun even remotely traitorous? Because he disagrees with you?
Last I checked, this is our blog and your are our guest. We allow you to have free speech here – we own this town hall.
So who is more traitorous: the people who provide you a place to exercise the first amendment or the person whose knee-jerk reaction is to stomp ones foot, get in a huff, and call people names?
Well Jason, when my neighbor got arrested for attacking a police officer and was discovered to be an illegal alien (status is checked and reported by the police) it’s not hard to tell about legal status. If you want to have a reasoned debate that is fine but reason requires rationality and logic of which you have not displayed. I’ll give it to you straight. You get no where using a straw man argument.
Shaun, same applies to you. How can you even equate immigrants and Hispanics to illegal aliens? You committed the fallacy of equivocation. In fact, your article displays this fallacy and racism on your part. I had no idea that you are a racist.
If you care to have a reasoned discussion then be rational. The topic is illegal immigration a behavior that becomes illegal as soon as one crosses the border illegally. Do you get it? The specific topic is the problem of illegal aliens committing crimes in this country. We’re talking about behavior. Do you get it now?
And kids wonder why our government is so messed up. It’s because we elect politicans like you. At least you spoke your feelings instead of hiding them and pretending to be a conservative.
[...] There is hardly any issue more certain to divide the rightosphere in Virginia than that of illegal aliens. Just my use of this term will cause some wailing and gnashing of teeth. For years, as this issue has ebbed and flowed (and it really has), those who take the antirestrictionist argument have appeared both more isolated and more strident (such as Shaun). [...]
Mr. Kenney,
While I respect your right to disagee with the actions we in Manassas and PWC have taken to combat the effects illegal immigration in our community, I hope you will respect my right to consider you a fool.
Mr. Kenney,
While I respect your right to disagee with the actions we in Manassas and PWC have taken to combat the effects illegal immigration have had in our community, I hope you will respect my right to consider you a fool.
“At least you spoke your feelings instead of hiding them and pretending to be a conservative.”
So what I am reading here is that Shaun spoke out against a trend in politics voiced in Miller’s speech to paint the illegal immigrant community as a bunch of hardened criminals on the loose in Manassas. This means he forfeits his Conservative credentials? Thhaaaatttt seems reasonable….
Shaun is correct. Jackson Miller’s hysterics was political grand standing at its most obvious. I guess its election time.
Patty – When my neighbor was arrested for beating his girlfriend, they didn’t bother to check his papers. You know, his being white and all.
What I’m saying is that your statements are not supported by the facts of a declining crime rate, a national trend that shows Hispanics committing crimes at a rate comparable to Whites, and a general fear exhibited by those in this debate against “those people”.
Too many times the response has been “have you seen how they live?” or “have you seen how they treat women?” or other straw-man arguments that show not an issue with their legality but an ignorance and bigotry towards their culture.
You say people have “no clue what it’s like to live among illegal aliens” but if the problem is as prevalent as you and others claim, sure I do. We all do. We’re drowning in them!
Sorry your neighbor was a dick and hit a cop. But it’s not because he was an illegal immigrant.
Jason, that was another crime that could have been prevented if the illegal alien was deported. Just for your information, everyone who is arrested in PWC is checked for legal status no matter color. You prove our point by your responses that those who support illegal immigration have no logical justification. We are talking behavior. You are talking bigotry. Unbelievable…but your comments do prove our point. Keep them coming. They are quite entertaining.
Eric the 1/2 troll (interesting handle), a question begging epithet gets you no where. Same with you Jason.
What Jackson was ranting about was illegal aliens who commit multiple crimes, have multiple arrests, and are yet still roaming the streets. Why are they not shipped home on the first offense?
Patty –
At CPAC, it was the conservative Hispanics that were literally pleading with others regarding the immigration laws not to target the Hispanic community. From their mouths — not mine — have come the complaints that in the efforts to combat illegal immigration, Hispanics are being targeted.
…and they point to Corey Stewart as the problem.
Now I consider most folks to be reasonable individuals. And when presented with information that may or may not size up with preconceived notions, I expect them to have the honesty to change their opinions, if they are truly honest people.
I have no doubt that illegal immigration is a problem (it is), and I have no doubt that the federal government is falling down on its responsibilities (they most certainly are) — but I am equally certain that the current course that some want the rest of Virginia to pursue will do absolutely nothing to solve the problem, will only make matters worse, alienate millions of American citizens in the process, and achieve absolutely ZERO of its goals.
The fact of the matter is that we need border enforcement NOW. Then you need to develop a responsible way of resolving the 8-20 million people here whose only crime in earning a living and raising a family was to come to America to do it.
I don’t have a clean answer on that… but I know for a fact that creating Jose Crow laws isn’t going to make the problem go away.
@Georgie –
Because the Feds aren’t doing their job. Simple as that.
Shaun,
When a state makes it easy for an illegal immigrant to get a driver’s license and register to vote, the Constitution gets flushed down the toilet so to speak.
Nothing like an opinion from someone that hides deep in rural Va where the highlight of the summer is watching two skunks mate.
I think you should sell your modest attempt at a farm in Kents Store, Virginia and with the proceeds buy a townhouse here (should only be a small mortgage after the sale)where you could leave the screen door open(the unofficial room for rent sign for illegals) and gain some extra income from renting the extra rooms.
I would personally then value your thoughts and opinions and you could gain some credibility then
By the way, I noticed you like to use the word immigrant. I did use that in my last comment so you could be sure to read it. The proper term is illegal alien. Your use of the word immigrant to descibe illegal aliens is insulting to legal immigrants. And yes, Jason, I know that for a fact : )
Also, just because a certain group of Hispanics are claiming foul doesn’t mean Hispanics are being targeted. That too is a fallacy. I can also say there are quite a number of Hispanics who believe the state and local government should crack down on illegal aliens. I’ve witnessed that too.
This should be a game show question: How many logical fallicies can the writer of this thread and his supporters make? : )
I had a boss tell me about the word assume. Shaun, I hope you and Jason can figure that one out.
@Patti –
The Constitution never gets flushed down the toilet, IMO. If there’s a problem with who has access to Virginia driver’s licenses after 9/11, let’s fix the problem.
The key to all of this, though, is the federal government falling down on its responsibilities. Can we all agree that this would not be a problem if the federal government met its responsibilities?
…and no, it’s not a fallacy to say that “probable cause” targets Hispanics. The UVA study demonstrated it that 8,000 Hispanics left Prince William, and as many as half of those who left were, indeed, Americans.
Is that not a problem?
“How many logical fallicies can the writer of this thread and his supporters make?”
Let me see, would this statement fall into Ad Hominem or Ad Absurdum?
Mr. Kenney, you have misrepresented the UVA report. Here is a link: http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=040086003880006290
Please notice that legal immigrants did not leave.
If you read my comment to Jason you would have noticed that EVERYONE arrested gets their status checked.
Not only have you not done your homework you have misrepresented the UVA report.
Quit lying.
I appreciated this article. Thank you.
Mr. Kenny, I totally agree with the blog moderator of BVBL. Your article is totally insensitive to those of us who live here who had to experience this horrific tragedy.
You truly owe the residents of Manassas and PWC an apology.
Patty – Actually, read the report and look at the numbers:
http://bearingdrift.com/2010/11/17/pwc-celebrates-rule-of-law-driving-out-nearly-8000-hispanics/
According to the UVA study, nearly 8000 Hispanics have left PWC, of whom, anywhere from 1,700 to 5,700 were completely legal Hispanics. It’s in the report.
Do your homework.
Yes Shaun, that is a problem. This is a big problem here in Virginia Beach as well. After 9-11, the Muslim population were very concerned they would be targeted, all whom I knew were here legally and were or became citizens.
And we also have illegal aliens who commit crimes, stay and end up causing even more harm. One of my long time friends daughter died from one such illegal alien.
http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-norfolk/today-is-the-second-anniversary-of-the-tragic-deaths-of-tessa-tranchant-and-allison-kuhnhardt
The feds and the courts need to do a better job shipping illegal aliens back where they came from on the first offense and American citizens need to have full rights.
By the way, no where in any of Shaun’s remarks do I see racism. Just a real problem and Shaun calling it as it is.
Shaun, you obviously didn’t read the link I posted. Illegal aliens left not legal immigrants.
There you go again…equating legal immigrants with illegal aliens.
I feel sorry for your constituents.
Whom do we protect? American children with Autism or Illegal aliens who commit crimes?
Hmmmmmm.
Here’s the problem. It’s impossible to unspill milk. They’re here, and I don’t think Americans really want door-to-door searches.
The VISA system is impossibly broken – more illegals are the result of overstayed visas than crossing borders – that’s just fact.
The legal immigration system is impossibly broken – it shouldn’t take 10 years to become a citizen.
ANY crime by an illegal should result in deportation. But that problem usually results in them sneaking back in. Better than putting them right back on the street, but not a complete solution.
Bottom line – the federal government does not want to solve this problem, and they aren’t about to start now. The hope for eventual, low-income voters is too enticing for them.
By the way, I noticed you picked on a poster because he/she was using a DOD computer.
Do your constituents know that you spend an amazing amount of time posting on a blog?
Don’t you have anything better to do? How about taking care of your constituents? Are they important to you?
Kathy, when Shaun equates Hispanics to illegal aliens, that is a racist remark.
Patty, do you think it’s the job of elected officials to “take care” of you?
Jason, I posted the UVA summary report directly from PWC government’s web site. All you posted is a blog report (easy for the blogger to take things out of context, don’t you think?). Which do you think is a better source?
I would like to recommend a book to you: “The Thinking Toolbox Thirty-Five Lessons That Will Build Your Reasoning Skills” by Nathaniel Bluedorn and Hans Bluedorn.
Patty: I’ve read the entire thread and you are picking a fight. These were Shaun’s exact words without twisting them:
Shaun Kenney says:
February 15, 2011 at 4:22 pm
“…and no, it’s not a fallacy to say that “probable cause” targets Hispanics. The UVA study demonstrated it that 8,000 Hispanics left Prince William, and as many as half of those who left were, indeed, Americans.
Is that not a problem?”
He did not link the word Hispanic with illegal alien as you charge.
Brian,
I expect elected officials to do their homework and listen to their constituents so they can make good decisions.
The survey does say that nearly 8.000 Latinos left the area and that some were illegal immigrants and some were legal ones.
Patty doesn’t get to tell people what terms to use. Illegal immigrantis perfectly acceptable.
The Manassas shootings seem to be more about domestic violence than they do about immigration status. Housing overcrowding also seems to be an issue.
Kathy, here is a quote from the above article:
“Let’s review: an ordinance is passed to specifically target Hispanics”
Did you read the article? Do you understand?
Please give me a break. All you had to do was look at the title.
Do yourself a favor. Please read my recommendation to Jason.
Thank you
This is obviously a liberal blog.
Good bye all. Have a nice day
p.s. Firestorm, if you are the same one I’m thinking of, you are a regular poster on a liberal blog.
I was right. This is a liberal blog.
Well sure she does Brian and to make sure “those kind of people” don’t move into her neighborhood too.
The solution to the illegal immigration problem is A: at the border and B: at the workplace.
People aren’t coming here illegally because they want to live near Patty. They are cooming because American employers are enticing them with jobs and a better income than they can make at home.
BK is right that we don’t want house to house searches and we’ve got a problem of about 20 million people we have to find something to do with. Rigidly enforcing requirements that employers make sure their employees are citizens or have a green card would result in some of those people self deporting when they couldn’t get a job here.
But, realistically, we’ve got to come up with some path to citizenship — learn English, have a job or join the military, pay a fine — as well.
My feelings are really hurt now……..
By the way, I’m so liberal I learned in college to teach English as a Second Language, oh my!!!!!
Mr. Kenny,
Without due respect, you are way off base. I can understand why a person who does not live in an area where there is a large illegal alien population to question what is the big deal. Well, let me tell you why it is. Just in the last few months, our area has seen an illegal alien wanted for the rape of an 8 year old. An illegal alien kill a nun while DUI. An illegal alien kill their own child, an illegal alien kill three people while attacking two others, three illegal aliens get arrested for running a fake ID ring.
But, I suppose you are just fine with illegal alien rapists running around. So be it But when the crisis hits your area, I will not do as you have done, which is insult anyone that is concerned.
Sorry, that should be with due respect.
Liberal? Patty’s the one quoting UVA studies…
Patty, You asked why Shaun wasn’t “taking care of his constituents” – so, you must think that’s what government is supposed to do – take care of you.
Otherwise, why accuse Shaun of not doing it?
@Patty –
What was that about ad hominem and logical fallacies again?
Citizen of Manassas, what is your solution?
COM –
I agree with you — let the federal government enforce the law. Prosecute these criminals, and if they are illegal aliens, extradite them to their government to serve sentence there.
On the flip side, passing ordinances and laws that target the Hispanic community, or laws that mitigate, but do not resolve the problem only serves to make the problem that much worse.
The fact that the UVA study points out that half of those Hispanics who left Prince William County were legal, law-abiding American citizens should bother everyone… unless this isn’t about illegal immigrants, but about driving out Hispanics.
Now I know for a fact there are some — not all — who honestly and truly believe this is a war, one to be waged against Hispanics.
There are others who see this as a policy discussion with consequences that hit home, who want a solution, and are not willing to trample the Constitution in order to resolve it.
Now I side with the latter. Some side with the former. I will not choose for anyone which side they’d prefer to stack themselves with, but I’ll take the Constitution over a police state any ol’ day.
Steve you make excellent points: Every company I’ve owned I strictly enforced the requirements of proof of citizenship or proof of legal eligability to work in America. If every employee did the same, we would have far less illegal immigrants.
To require they “learn English, have a job or join the military, pay a fine — as well.” is also excellent. It grates me when someone has enjoyed the bounty of America for years and yet refuse to learn the language of the American people. Just my personal pet peave.
I meant employer.
Shaun, I commend you for having the courage and cajones to use your real name when defending your views. Don’t let the cowards who hide behind pseudonyms get to you.
“Nosotros creemos ser evidente en sí mismo, que todos los hombres nacen iguales y dotados por su Criador de ciertos derechos inagenables: que entre estos son los principales la seguridad de la libertad y la vida, que constituyen la humana felicidad.” – Thomas Jefferson
Any one who believes and will defend the Constitution of the United States will defend it’s citizens, whether they were born here, or became citizens legally.
Brian, any suggestions on how to streamline applications for citizenship?
Why don;t you come up here with our gang problems and illegals everywhere and tell the rest of us that we are a bunch of crazy racists. You sir are the definition of an assclown and hopefully your sorry ass is voted out of office.
Shaun, I moved from PWC to central VA last year. I can atest to the fact that Corey Stewart is a real jackwagon.
Jackson Miller is a far different type of public servant. He is in fact a real leader. I just listened to his floor speech twice. I do think you are the one being a bit hard on him today.
Four homicides a mile from his home is something deserving of such a speech. He was showing true self, something we rarely get from politicians these days.
Shaun, have you ever met or spoke with this man?
I believe the liberal blog I was accused of posting on was insidenova.com–the News and Messenger online paper.
That Patty is a real detective.
Scott et al, what happens in the General Assembly affects us all here in Virginia and Jackson Miller was addressing the General Assembly.
Good for Sean for pointing out the obvious point of all the political theater.
I actually found his speech to be free and clear from racist or anti-hispanic comments.
In fact he never even says any of the suspects names. Just the opposite, he states the victims names. Most of which seem to be latinos.
Am I mistaken?
Patty, I’ve got a Chris Christie style answer for you:
Move.
“Patty, I’ve got a Chris Christie style answer for you:
Move.”
Mr. Schoeneman,
Since you don’t live in Manassas, your argument is invalid.
I don’t need to live in Manassas. If you don’t like where you live for whatever reason, move. No one is forcing you to stay there.
It’s the simplest solution and it doesn’t require violating anyone’s rights or passing any laws.
@John F. —
For one, I would be very glad to see Jackson Miller distance himself from Corey Stewart.
Mr, Kenney,
This is not about a war on hispanics, it’s about a war against illegal aliens. Please provide a law, etc, where it directly targets hispanics by name. Otherwise, I suggest that you stop your bombastic inciteful language toward those that do not support illegals. You sir, are engaging in fear mongoring for what reasons I do not know. But, it’s pretty ironic that you do so in an opinion piece that you accouse others of doing. Illegals aliens come from all over the World. Maybe you are not aware of that, but you should.
The Prince William County effort was to weed out illegals, not hispanics. The County spent a lot of time, training and effort to ensure the effort was not going to target any one ethnic group. The fact that some people moved is not the fault of the County, but of those people who are ignorant of the effort.
Not a single lawsuit has been brought against the County based on a faulty enforcement of the effort.
Good leadership sometimes means taking the situation in hand. It is obvious the Federal Government is not serious about this issue given the number of illegals that have been released by ICE.
Our city is burning. It’s not just illegal aliens committing crimes but they are committing the most horrific ones. What don’t you understand about the fact if illegal aliens were nor here these crimes would not be occurring?
Someone who came here illegally, hence the term illegal alien, should be deported immediately. We do not know who these people are or what they are capable of doing. Yes, most of th come here for a better life but I am not willing to play Russain roulette with my family’s life or their safety and our elected officials have no right to spin that chamber unless I ask them too and I have not!!!
Again COM and Maureen: The fact that the UVA study points out that half of those Hispanics who left Prince William County were legal, law-abiding American citizens should bother everyone… unless this isn’t about illegal immigrants, but about driving out Hispanics.
Does this bother you?
@Ben –
Thank you. Not sure Jefferson would have said it in exactly the same way, but he would have meant exactly what you said!
Maureen, my girlfriend in El Paso tells me of bullets flying over the border. I hear your fear. We need to protect our borders better and protect our citizens as well. The only ones spinning the chamber are the employers who want to hire illegal aliens and pay less money, no taxes and no benefits for employees. That’s what attracts illegal aliens because less money in America is still better that the $2 most people make in all the third world countries, including Mexico.
Kathy, I think we can all agree that that is wrong and that we definitely need to secure the border better.
But it’s also important to recognize that most illegal immigrants don’t come here by sneaking across the border. They come here legally and simply don’t leave. That’s where the difficulties arise.
CitizenofManassas, I doubt sincerely that the folks in PWC are concerned about illegal Canadian immigration across the border, or all of the Irish who over stay their visas and end up working at the Irish pub down the way. If there are any statistics that talk about the number of non-hispanic illegal immigrants PWC has arrested and turned over to the Feds for deportation, I’d love to see them.
Maureen, all crimes are horrific if you or your family members are the victim of one. It is easy to say “if they weren’t here this wouldn’t have happened” but we can’t predict the future or the past – there are 20 million illegals in this country and the vast majority of them aren’t committing violent crimes.
We need to get rid of the emotion and deal with these issues rationally. And that begins with understanding the true problem, which Kathy has pointed out – as long as businesses and individuals are going to keep breaking the law and employing illegals, they are going to continue coming here.
Of course the legal immigrants/hispanic Americans left. Enforcement against the illegal immigrants, the huge majority of which are hispanic, will make for a hostile environment in their eyes, especially if they sympathize with those illegal aliens. Some may even be relatives. The same would have happened if the illegal aliens and the legal immigrants or even American born citizens had been of, say, Irish descent.
However, just because they moved does not mean that they had rights violated. They just didn’t like what was happening to their friends and family.
Well, apparently, SOMEBODY has to enforce the immigration laws. The evidence shows that the feds are dropping the ball.
Mr, Kenney,
What has bothered me is the number of elected officials who defend illegal aliens. It bothers me that almost on a weekly basis I read another story of an illegal alien committing a crime.
As I said, and I guess you either have not taken the time to do proper research on the issue or you just want to continue to spread misinformation about the effort, but the effort was aimed at only illegal aliens. Nowhere in the effort was there mention of going after legal immigrants or Citizens. In fact the police department held a number of public meetings to explain in great detail the effort, and what it covered and what it did not. Many people have left the County over the last few years, for all sorts of reasons.
But, one thing is clear, there are fewer illegal aliens in the County and that is a good thing.
Brian,
I do not believe you can speak on behalf of an entire County. But,I suppose if you think you can, why don’t your provide some evidence that says the people of the County are only worried about one type of illegal alien.
What do you consider to be a vast majority of illegals? Do you consider driving without a license to be a crime? Or, how about either buying fake documents or stealing the identity of someone else? How about not paying taxes? How about working here illegally? Or coming back illegally after being deported? How about gang members that do not work? At what point, besides being here illegally, would you consider an illegal to be breaking enough laws to be considered a criminal?
Crimes committed by illegals are crimes that should not have happened.
Do you defend other criminals, or generally just criminals who happen to be illegals?
You are right, we do need to discuss this issue with less emotion. However, the illegal alien supporters, in particular, the media always give us the sob stories of illegals as why we need to take it easy on them. Why is that?
Citizen, I wasn’t speaking on behalf of the county. I was speculating about the level of concern about non-Hispanic illegal immigration in PWC.
I specified violent crime in my comment. They are all committing a crime by being here illegally. It is the violent crimes that people pay attention to and cause the kind of emotion Delegate Miller displayed.
I am not defending illegals. I am supporting my friend Shaun from what I consider to be ill considered attacks, some coming from people whose true motivation I question.
Why do we get sob stories? Probably because the lives of those folks are so pitiable its hard not to have some compassion and empathy for them. And some folks don’t like seeing people who can’t defend themselves getting picked on and bullied, especially when so many folks who are American citizens get swept up in the hysteria.
In our country we owe a great debt to legal immigrants, Albert Einstein being one of them. He helped bring an end to WWII. Irving Berlin, Madeleine Albright, Joseph Pulitzer and many more immigrants blessed our country.
What our country, not just individual counties, needs is American citizens obeying the law and not hiring illegal aliens. Let’s keep it simple.
If supporting the rights of American citizens is liberal, then I shall be a liberal.
Shaun, it’s so good to see that there are still some sane people in our party.
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Brian,
So, on one hand it’s good to exploit illegals to push them on the rest of the Country, but not the other way around. When people make poor choices in life, like coming here illegally, and continue to break the law, I have no sympathy for them. The fact they place their children in a bad position is even more of a reason to dislike them. I have no sympathy for any criminal who continues to break the law. Nobody forces people to come here illegally.
I think you are assuming a lot. We all know illegals come from many different Countries, and the people of Prince William County would have reacted the same if regardless of the racial or ethnic make up of illegals.
I don’t believe it takes a rocket scientist to discern a very clear implied connection with the “cry”…..”protect our borders”! Ah, hello, pretty sure they are referring to our southern border and not the Candadians! There is no seperating race from this discussion of illegal aliens. Ergo, Robert Duecaster bizaare accusation of Sean being a “race traitor”!
Not unlike some of your posters Elena who claimed PWC elected officials were Nazis! Pot meet kettle.
Also very funny about your website getting all indignant about PWC and tourism when multiple times your posters said (and this is an exact quote) “PWC is the capital of racism”. It didn’t bother you then at all, did it? Where was all the indignation then about those remarks?
FYI: The City of Manassas is an independent
jurisdiction with a population of over 38,000.
It isn’t part of Prince William County.
We border each other and often address
the same issues, but we are not the same.
But Delegate Jackson Miller, whose district
includes the City and portions of PWC, spoke
for both jurisdictions. That an illegal
immigrant who was suppose to be deported in 2002,
and had encounters with the court system since,
was able to kill 3 people and maim others
in 2011 has no excuse. State and local
governments, by default, have been forced to
deal with the results of the failure of Federal officials to perform their duties.
I applaud the work of Delegate Miller on this issue.
Sam, illegal aliens are not citizens.
Shaun, you should be sued for lying. You continue to misrepresent the UVA report.
Here is the summary from the PWC government web site:
http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=040086003880006290
Shaun you and those who agree with you are typical of those who do not look at facts, who have no logical justification for their arguments, who equate Hispanics with illegal behavior (illegal immigration) which is racist (yes it is) and who have an a priori commitment to defending illegal aliens or passing the buck to the Federal government.
It is absolutely disgusting that you hold a public office. I think the Republican Party and the Tea Party should distance themselves from you and the others who agree with you on this issue.
Some of my family members are legal immigrants. According to cultural practices of countries where they originated your face should be spit upon. You keep lying and you deserve no respect.
I think your article is evil minded and is a political attempt to quiet our legislators who want to do something about illegal aliens. As far as I’m concerned the blood of the victims is on your hands.
You are sickening.
Copied directly from the UVA report summary for those who refuse to go to the link I posted:
“There was no exodus of legal immigrants, and the largest immigrant population (Hispanics) remained stable – The report finds that “substantial numbers of illegal immigrants did leave the County, and it is reasonable to suppose that some legal immigrants also chose to leave.” However, “the fact that the size of the Hispanic community remained stable as the illegal immigrants departed, and the age structure of the Hispanic community changed significantly after the policy was introduced, both suggest that more acculturated Hispanics remained and/or took the place of the illegal immigrants (and legal immigrants) who did choose to leave.”
Did you read the first sentence or are you illiterate?
Our Northern border is much safer. Though, I suppose there could be a chance I’ve missed the many stories in the media detailing the thousands of deaths that have happened in that area over the last few years. Or, the stories detailing the thousands upon thousands of illegal aliens who have been caught trying to cross the border. No, that does not mean we do not have issues with our Northern border, recall the suspected terrorist who was stopped at a border stop in Washington State a few years ago, who wanted to blow up land marks in Seattle, but to compare the two borders is not even close.
Another illegal alien was picked up by the Prince William County yesterday. He is suspected of sexually assaulting a five year old girl. This crime happened about two miles from the three shootings of last Thursday night. He too has been in police custody at some point in the past. But, I suppose we should all just shut up about illegals.
I’m pretty sure that if you had a massive influx of illegal immigrants into Fluvanna, you’d change your tune very quickly. The issue really hits home when your neighbors are anonymous, untracked individuals and it is more than obvious that the collective law enforcement apparatus does not care about your family’s safety. My own adventures with illegal neighbors mostly boiled down to noise and parking, and quality=of-life issues, but the larger issue exists of public safety and how little our Federal and State government cares about average Americans.
And there is a very healthy Hispanic demographic in Masassas, and has been the whole time I’ve lived here (10+ years). I think that to assume, based on what activists say, that most Hispanics feel discomfort here is out-of-touch with what’s real. I’m sure that those who are strong proponents of Amnesty for illegal immigrants do feel some discomfort, but I think that’s a smaller portion of the Hispanic community than one would think from the way this debate is usually framed.
George –
I’ve searched Google and Bearing Drift for that precise term “PWC is the capital of racism” and did not find it from anyone but yourself.
Rick —
The distance between these two comments:
…and this:
…is what creates the most concern.
Greg makes the mistake of thinking I’m from Fluvanna proper. I’m from Fredericksburg, lived in the area, worked in Manassas, etc. I chose to live out here because, frankly, my kids deserve a great life out in the country.
I’m absolutely certain that there are public safety issues surrounding illegal immigration. And I’m equally certain that the federal government needs to step up to its responsibilities. I want the borders enforced not just from an immigration standpoint, but from a national security standpoint.
What I am not willing to do is overstep constitutional boundaries to make that happen, nor am I willing to watch “probable cause” laws be enacted across Virginia to push out those who *look like* illegal immigrants.
I appreciate your very reasonable comments though. As before, about 7 out of 10 folks really get the issue and have legitimate concerns. It’s those 3 of 10 who treat this as a cultural, racial, or nativist war… I just don’t get that.
I’d like to thank everyone for helping ad rates.
Autism, Civil War, Immigration. Have we left anything out?
Mr.Kenney:
“Let’s review: an ordinance is passed to specifically target Hispanics in Prince William County”
This is an outright lie and you know it. What proof or evidence do you have for this outrageous statement?
Jackson Miller has been discussing criminal illegal immigration enforcement for many years. He is widely popular and doesn’t need any tragedy to increase citizens support for him.
He has an obligation as an elected official to protect his residents against all types of criminal behavior.
Mr.Kenney I would suggest you take your false allegations about PWC Illegal Immigrant Resoltuion over to the Mexican without Borders organization where they will welcome you with open arms.
What does an illegal alien look like? You obviously believe all illegals must be hispanic, because I’ve not read a single word from you where you talk about non hispanic illegals.
“As before, about 7 out of 10 folks really get the issue and have legitimate concerns. It’s those 3 of 10 who treat this as a cultural, racial, or nativist war… I just don’t get that.”
Well whatever the ratio is, I’m sure there’s some overlap between the former and the latter. But that shouldn’t make the former seem less legitimate.
To me it’s not cultural, racial, or nativist. I get passionate about this issue because :
A. Illegal immigration depresses wages for lower-class Americans
B. Illegal immigration imports poverty, when supposedly we are trying to reduce poverty in America
C. I saw the effects of large-scale illegal immigrants settling in my community circa 2006-2007, to the point that neighbors who had enough money were fleeing. My neighborhood was becoming a ghetto, where taxes (which were going way down per capita because of household overcrowding) could never pay for services consumed. Beyond cultural/racial issues, what disturbed me was seeing my suburb become urban, overnight, in unplanned fashion.
D. Our elected officials are thumbing their noses at us and at the laws they swore to uphold, not even trying, because the issue doesn’t affect them, and because those with money profit from reduced labor rates and increased consumer bases. And because the Democratic party looks forward to more non-white voters. It’s a complete abrogation of responsibility.
This cartoon speaks at more length to my feelings on the issue – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz4UgnJo6AM
A GOA report provides that we control only about 44% of the Border and of that only 15% is “air tight”. Yet obama and big sis have been telling us the border is as safe as it has ever been. Whatever.
http://www.usnews.com/news/washington-whispers/articles/2011/02/16/border-patrol-controls-just-44-percent-of-south
The cartoon is definitely a Tea Party favorite I’m guessing. I don’t know how what Shaun said got so twisted by others. I got it, others got it, it just seems some are determined to misunderstand it. People have means to their own ends but if some are using this discussion to want to run for office or help others run for office, just say so. It would be more honest.
Kathy, What is meant by the Tea Party liking the cartoon? Careful not to fall in with the TP bashing crew.
Shaun,
The Constitution does not protect illegal aliens.
The Constitution allows us to protect ourselves from foreign invasion.
Just arrested yesterday afternoon, an illegal alien who sexually assualted a five year old:
http://www.bvbl.net/index.php/2011/02/16/more-illegal-alien-crime-five-year-old-sexually-assaulted/#more-3692
By the way, we are getting word out that Fluvanna County is welcoming to undocumented immigrants. We also are getting word out that you will not do anything to cause them to leave your county.
Have fun Mr. Kenney. You deserve all the “fun” we are receiving.
We have an immigration system/process to welcome immigrants into this country. …and there are millions who use it.
We do not need to equate illegal aliens to the crimes they commit, even though it adds to the justification to uphold the immigration system and enforce borders. We should not use criminal acts to justify enforcing a system that is already there. It just needs to be enforced.
For local government to make up for the federal governemnts incompetence does not make sense. But this same federal government who ignores the immigration system, are also ignoring two indictments for the oil moratorium and healthcare ruling. What’s to think that they would do any different with illegal aliens?
I have never bashed the Tea Party, however, it does seem this particular stream of commentary is bent politically and is going far away from what Shaun said to begin with. My point is: the ones taking it away are they doing it for their own personal political gain? It seems so.
John Jackson,
If the Feds thought they could handle all the illegal aliens in this country why do you suppose Congress enacted 287g?
The idiocy of the comments is astounding.
I suppose it is okay for you that more citizens will die at the hands of illegal aliens. I suppose that with unemployment hovering around 9-10% it is okay for illegal aliens to have jobs. I suppose that it is okay with you that illegal aliens recieve welfare, Section 8 and WIC. I suppose it is okay with you that illegal aliens have their babies at the hospital and don’t pay their bill. I suppose it is okay with you that illegal aliens use the emergency room for doctor’s visits and not pay their bill. I suppose it is okay with you that illegal aliens get a free education with the added bonus of a free breakfast and lunch while at the same time receiving WIC benefits. I suppose it is okay with you that illegal aliens steal someone’s id in order to work. They even run phony ID operations. I suppose it is okay with you that they drive without licenses and insurance, hit someone and not pay the bill…better yet, the usually drive off, hit and run…etc., etc., etc.
No, these people who attack Shaun has been trained that way even though I’m not sure what position he’s taking. But these people have been trained to react that way.
I am called racist from the Dems and stupid from the Repubs for being affiliated with the Tea Party.
As you watch Washington, they play in the same games like a bunch of college kids. It is time to set aside the talk and just plow through these accusations. There are some people that will understand your point of view and side with you.
I’ve come to learn that my ideas are not far off from mainstream, its just that loud (and the critical people) are loud because they have to be. Just keep plowing away…you have the best argument-logic. That’s why they resort to these methods.
Look at the argument with autism that I had, they called me every name in the book and that’s a shame. They totally missed the debate for the name calling.
Patty,
I’m on your side (I think)…the immigration system is a federal government responsibility but they do not want to make tough decisions. It’s a shame that the state and local government has to do the Feds job but this is something that needs to be pressured to the federal level.
The ACLU, Big Sis and Eric Holder has us pinned on enforcing immigration and our borders. As long as we vote them into office, what is done on a local basis is a mute point. But I can’t say Republicans are helping themselves either but they are held hostage by the media.
George,
Yes, there was one poster who had a proclivity for going to that extreme, unlike on Greg’s blog where hispanics were contstantly denegrated for being less than human. This is the reality, there was a sharp demographic shift in certain parts of PWC and the City of Manassas, instead of dealing with that very real racial/ethnic tension, you had an organization like FAIR, co-op our community for their own twisted agenda. Throughout American history, from the time of the chinese exclusion act to Johnson-Reed, this country has struggled with immigration, today is not different. On what side of history will you find yourself on?
Patty, you have at least one vote.
For anyone denying that immigration enforcement equates to latino, I wonder then why the conversation always goes to border enforcement? Do people realize that border crossings only account for 60% of illegal immigration? How much money are you willing to pay in taxes to have a zero tolerance? How many billions for this one issue are you willing to spend of taxpayer monety to keep out the brown people?
@Elena –
Precisely. We’re not talking about 20 million Canadians…
Yet Shaun would have us believe a Google search turns up nothing. Liar. Either that or he’s using his own personalized version of Google searching for that phrase. And no, it doesn’t turn up the use of it here.
Funny how people try to insert “brown people” and then claim it’s people who are in favor of doing something about illegal immigration who use that term!
You have to start somewhere, and if it’s trying to reduce the numbers in that 60% it’s better than nothing. It would also not be hard to start going after people who overstay their Visas. Apparently, the answer being given is it’s better to just do nothing. Good answer.
No Elena, it was not just one poster. Several talked about ethnic cleansing, rounding up legal Hispanics, and other hyperbole. Your website is just as guilty as bvbl in terms of use of hyperbole, yet you get off on your high horse as if you are innocent of it. Your website is just as guilty of fanning the flames too when it suited the cause, to instill fear in legal Hispanics that they would be victims of all kinds of horrible things. At times it was equated by multiple posters to events in Germany, that this was the prelude to what happened in Germany. Ethnic cleansing, Nazis, Hitler were not invoked by just one poster, as you would lead us to believe. You don’t have the moral high ground when it comes to comparing you and bvbl – both are opposite sides of the coin.
I’m now waiting for Shaun to chime in here with another one of his “Google searches” and claim the only time these terms have been used is today on this website! As if Google works that fast in finding new entries on blogs….. He tried to pull one over on all his readers on the blog with his claim about the Google search yesterday…
George,
I am simply not willing to be drawn into equating the base level of Greg’s blog to anti or moonhowlings. When you have children being called parasites, or ESOL classrooms a haven for MRSA, when you suggest latino women “breed” like animals, you may just get accused of racism and hatred. There is a reason that HSM and Greg were singled out by the Southern POverty Law Center and the Anti defamation league for being nativist and/or extremist. Discussing how dangerous blind ignorant hatred is not suggesting everyone is a nazi, but to dismiss historical lessons goes against how I was raised.
The reality is that when the collective “we” discuss illegal immigration, we should start our debate based on at least the simple premise that it is about our southern border. Who comes across the southern border? Well, they aren’t blond/blue eyed scandanavians! Every time Greg spoke of the horrors of illegal immigration, it was attached to a hispanic surname. Once again, rocket science not a prerequisite to make the connection between illegal immigration and hispanic.
Fine, but you continually bring up things said on Greg’s blog in the past, yet you don’t want to acknowledge things said on your blog, and seem to want to claim some moral high ground. Then when someone debates you on the topic you say you refuse to get drawn into the debate! Then don’t bring up the stuff said on the other blog! Your blog has done just as much to damage PWC as far as tourism goes as Greg’s, or anything said recently in this debate. For all we know people on your side go onto Greg’s blog and say these nasty things. Wouldn’t surprise me a bit, they do anything they can to try to paint people as racists.
And, you can bet if Canadians came here and caused the problems there would be an outcry against them too.
As a collective, let’s start with enforcing the immigration system that we already have. If our federal government did that, we would not need these debates. But instead, their incompetence is allowed to fester while we do their job. Meanwhile, the same groups wish for the feds to take care of healthcare and maintain our businesses. While our federal government cannot do the few responsibilities they were given in the Constitution.
And as for securing the borders, maybe our federal government ought to let the free market work, let’s use some of that $11 billion we gave USPS. or the $150+ billion that we gave to Freddie and Freddie. Meanwhile, all the issues each community is dealing with has cost even more money.
But our federal government has pushed one of their few responsibilities to its citizens. Can’t wait until the single payer healthcare kicks in, that should be awesome with the way they’re handling immigration.
It makes a lot more sense to focus on the border, since that is where 60% of the illegal immigrants come in rather than another area which accounts for a a smaller percentage. I remember reading a few years ago that legal immigrants commit crimes at about half the rate of natural born citizens and that illegal immigrants commit crimes at about twice the rate of natural born citizens (that doesn’t “count” the reasons they are called illegal). I think that was from Freakenomics or a similar book. I believe the same source also said that illegal immigrants depress wages and have a negative overall affect on education scores (the ones that compare us to other nations). There are many more negative repercusions of illegal immigration, and granted there are some positive ones. I just don’t understand why people on both sides oppose a comprehensive plan. Tighten the borders, tighten the policies for enforcement of tourist visas and such and improve the processes for allowing entry. And allow a path to citizenship, while penalizing them. And don’t see a problem with localities and states stepping up to fill in the void left by the Federal government. I am rambling…
In fact Elena, your argument about broad sweeping Hispanics as a whole on immigration can easily be applied to your blog. Take a look in the past and see how many times reasonable people in the debate who are against illegal immigration have said reasonable things on your blog and been painted as a racist or worst, just because many posters on your blog paint anyone who is against illegal immigration, or enforcement of the border, as being racist, or your term “against brown people”. Ridiculous, but many posts can be easily dug up on your blog to support it. Your blog has so overused the term racist!
“george” or should I say “gainesville resident”
Your sweeping generalization is simply untrue. But I will add these links as proof of what side I would rather be associated with, Moonhowlings/Antibvbl or BVBL. I will choose Moon or anti ANYDAY!
Immigrants Targeted: Extremist Rhetoric Moves into the Mainstream
http://www.adl.org/civil_rights/anti_immigrant/caaaii.asp
AND
Letiecq is head of the nativist extremist organization Help Save Manassas, which boasts more than 2,000 members. He also runs “Black Velvet Bruce Li,” one of the most popular anti-immigration blogs in the region. On it, Letiecq refers to day-labor centers as “open-air toilets” and describes Latino pro-immigrant activists as “mobs of machete-wielding radicals wearing ski masks” who are part of a global “Zapatista” conspiracy that also includes “burning cars in the suburbs of Paris.”
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2008/spring/the-nativists?page=0,12
Elena,
With all due respect. The 2,000 number was at the peak of the debate. I don’t believe is that large today.
What great reading this thread has been.
Your sweeping generalizations are untrue too, Elena, yet you continue to make them. So what are you trying to say by calling someone a Gainesville Resident? Shall I call you “Haymarket Resident”??
Chris,
You are correct, that number is greatly reduced, maybe to 2 instead of 2,000!
ROTFL! Apparently Elena’s got a beef with some neighbor of hers and thinks it’s me. Apparently when you express valid opinions someone is attacked and apparently she tries to peg it on someone she has a grudge against. We all know what happens when you assume. Apparently Elena assumes a lot about a lot of things, including the fact that many people are racists who are not.
JZ, as comprehensive plans mean “Amnesty” which Reagan tried in the 80s, we who oppose the comprehensive plan doesn’t work. We have a path of legalization but our federal government use it, or deport illegal aliens.
Once we close off the flow of illegal aliens then we can discuss what happens to the ones that are still here.
“George”,
No beef with a “neighbor” you just sound exactly like someone who always obsessed over very old comments from anti.
I don’t have any grudges, and if you are not Gainesville, it wasn’t a slight, just an observation, sorry for the confusion.
Now, back to who I would rather be associated with….. I’ll pick the blog not recognized as an extremist, nativist group anyday, long live sane conversation on Bearingdrift and Moonhowlings
Here’s a quote from moonhowler herself about Corey Stewart, in which she says peace in PWC seems unlikely, yet they now take offense at statements seemingly hurting PWC tourism:
“He has fanned the flames during the immigration debate, he shouted anti abortion rhetoric at a V.O.I.C.E. meeting about housing, insulted vets over joining the Coffee Party, disparaging all the other members in his sweeping generalizations, just to name a few instances where peace in PWC seems unlikely. ”
Thanks for clearing up the confusion, but I’m not obsessed with old comments, but puzzled at the outrage at new “slights” against PWC that might hurt tourism.
Have to say though, while day-laborer centers administered by private or gov’t groups may not be open-air toilets, the unofficial ones like 7-11′s certainly are!
Patty,
Not very G-d like to suggest children should starve is it?
Let me just help clarify your statement regarding children being fed via the WIC program while getting school lunches. I guess your statement could be true of kindergartners, who could be five, but after that, WIC benefits terminate.
But really Patty, I am sad that you would deny hungry children food…WWJD?
http://www.fns.usda.gov/wic/WIC-Fact-Sheet.pdf
1. What is WIC?
WIC provides nutritious foods, nutrition education, and referrals to health and other
social services to participants at no charge. WIC serves low-income pregnant,
postpartum and breastfeeding women, and infants and children up to age 5 who are at
nutrition risk.
WIC is
Not to mention my lazy neighbors, who I admit I don’t know are illegal but given that 10 or more live in the 3 bedroom SFH next to my house and come at all hours of the day or night, use my lawn as a urinal and a dumpster for their trash, cigarettes, beer bottles, and other stuff. I strongly suspect some are illegal, but have no proof. Also, their porch door is always left open which is a known sign of a boarding house type of situation.
“George”,
I think maybe you have missed the point. Moonhowler is directing her comments specifically at Corey as a deficient public servant, not at the whole of a community.
Elena, she is the one that said peace in PWC seems unlikely. The point is statements have been made on both sides fanning the flames, painting PWC as an undesirable place to live, yet now there seems to be indignation at the latest remarks.
George —
So much for property rights… and if it’s such a problem, tell them to clean up their yard. Or send in a code compliance officer.
Not sure what this has to do with illegal immigrants, either.
Oh George give it a rest. We know who you are. I have gotten 4 emails from different people alerting me to the fact that you had come to Sean’s blog to bash us.
You can run but you can’t hide. Your habits are known.
Not sure of your point about my words about Corey, but it doesn’t matter. Its just part of your obsession.
Wasn’t there a song about obsession?
Nice to know I’m so popular to warrant four e-mails. Sounds like an obsession to me.
“You can run but you can’t hide”. Sounds like a threat to me.
Elena, when I taught ESL in Tulsa, the “boat people” that were able to escape came to Tulsa in large numbers. The young children I taught usually got their only food of the day at school. Many were malnourished. It was heart breaking.
No I do not think we should let children starve.
Kathy,
I was a middle school counselor in the Baileys Crossroads area in Frfx County, we had children from 37 different countries, it was like working at the UN! Many of those children had two solid meals a day, breakfast and lunch, at school, and that was it.
George, add paranoid to the list. It is your identity that seems to be easily recognized.
If Moonhowlings is offensive to you, don’t go there.
Meanwhile, you need to make sure when you criticize, you criticize Moonhowlings for its sins and antibvbl for its sins. Don’t mix up the 2. They are not the same blog. We house the archives of bvbl. Moonhowlings was ‘born’ 2/26/10.
I could say the same to you – if my posts here are offensive to you, don’t read them. At least I’m not making threats like “you can run but you can’t hide”. You can make all the claims you want about who you think I am, the joke would be on you, not me. Apparently it is your mission in life to figure out anyone who disagrees with you.
It is clear you don’t want a debate. All you want to do is try and out someone’s identity who you think they are that you have some sort of beef with. I came on here and pointed out a few things and instead of debating it the blog owners try and out someone who they have some long standing disagreement with. Direct threats are made, and I find that interesting. I seem to have stepped in the middle of some real ugly stuff!
I’m not sure there are many people who wouldn’t take “you can run but you can’t hide” as some sort of threat. What does that mean? No one is paranoid, and I’m not the one issuing threats on here.
On further consideration, as direct threats have been made, it is time to remove myself as I am not sure what moonhowler means. Not knowing who moonhowler is it is not clear she is dangerous person or not, and it is also clear that this website already outed the location of where someone was posting from. Keep on making claims as to who I am, I’m going to ignore all further postings. Legal action will be taken if this goes beyond this website and out into the physical world.
George do not let the door hit you. You are out of line with your attacks. This was a great debate until you arrived. You are a scumbag.
And a piece of trash. Deserve to be tracked down for the nasty things you said on here.
It is clear we are dealing with a nut who makes nasty comments and has a vendetta against moonhowlings. This person is clearly becoming unhinged. Let us hope he is gone and we can go back to the debate. He added nothing to this debate so goodbye george and go away psycho.
I’m a little late to the party on the last round of attacks on Shaun, but I did note one thing that Patty said that is flat out wrong:
“The Constitution does not protect illegal aliens.”
Wrong. Dead wrong. The Constitution protects every individual on U.S. soil, regardless of their immigration status.
This is why it was a bad idea to bring terrorists to the US for trial – as soon as they hit proper US soil, they are entitled to all the due process rights an American citizen is entitled to.
This dehumanization of illegal immigrants is not going to make this solving of the problem any easier.
PS “You can run but you can’t hide” isn’t a threat. It’s a cliche.
I may be late too but i wonder what would happen if that remark had been made on moonhowlings i a
m sure threr would be outrage. just because it is cliche does not make it harmless. AS to Fedup nice way to make a point NOT.
It’s an argument on the internet. It’s harmless.
It clearly incited FedUp who seems to not be all there, and could be a dangerous person. One should be careful the kinds of things they say on the internet that could be perceived as a threat and could incite others. They seem to be intent on outing someone and all that has to happen then is someone like FedUp to go and take action.
Brian,
Do illegals have the right to work in the Country? Do they have the right to vote? They might have some rights under the Constitution, but to confuse those rights with ours is not only wrong but stupid. When illegals start to respect our Nation, I’ll start to respect them.
Oh good Lord, stop being such a drama queen.
George, you are turning a 1 into a 10 and so is commonsense, although I question the accuracy of the name.
This is too silly for further comment.
That’s what I thought a long time ago…
Brian,
So you think the terrorists at GB (territory of U.S.) should be treated like US citizens? So you think illegal aliens should vote? So you think illegal aliens have the right to bear arms? You think invasions of foreign nationals should be protected? I could go on but I hope you get the point.
Article 14 makes specific mention of “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” of which I would like to refer this article: http://www.homeschools.org/theChristianEducator/vol3Issue8/theDirectorsCut.html
Also illegal aliens are not allowed to serve in the military. Are you saying that is unconstitutional?
There is also Article 4 Section 2 Privileges…key word is Citizen. Section 4 is interesting as well.
Illegal aliens are not citizens and are not entitled to all the privileges of citizens. They have broken our laws and are entitled to be deported. That is what they are entitled to. That is a fact.
You have no logical justification to defend the presence of illegal aliens.
By the way, another crime by an illegal alien: http://www2.insidenova.com/news/2011/jan/24/2/man-arrested-woodbridge-carjacking-ar-795488/
…coming to a 7-11 near you.
Citizen, I never said they had all of the rights of citizens. I said they had constitutional rights. The right to work is not a constitutional right. The right to vote is, and it is one they do not have.
These people are still people, even if they broke the law. They deserve a modicum of respect.
Brian…we are people too and we deserve as much respect and that includes self-respect. Don’t come to my house and act stupid and expect for me to treat you with dignity. I’ll kick your ass out.
They are not protected by Constitution, they are protected by the laws passed for the handling of immigration. You can’t pick and choose your Constitutional Rights.
But again, our federal government has neglected their responsibilities to protect these illegal aliens.
http://www2.insidenova.com/news/2011/jan/24/2/man-arrested-woodbridge-carjacking-ar-795488/
Another crime committed by an illegal alien.
Brian,
Would you respect someone who broke into your house and refused to leave? Or better yet, felt as whatever you owned really belonged to them? Because that is exactly what illegals are doing to our Country. They have zero respect for our Laws, Culture, and history of being a welcoming Nation of immigrants. No,they feel they can jump the line and not play by the rules.
Now, how many people do you know that support line jumpers? So, why should we have any respect for illegals. They displace Americans from neighborhoods and jobs, etc.
The house analogy isn’t apt. These folks aren’t living in your house. You don’t own the entire Commonwealth. It isn’t your property. It isn’t my property.
John, you’re simply wrong. They do have some constitutional rights, simply by virtue of being here. You may not like it, but facts are facts. I don’t disagree that the federal government has been abdicating their responsibility, but that’s not what I’m talking about here.
Citizenofmanassas, I’m a Christian. I think everyone, even illegal immigrants, deserve respect simply by virtue of being fellow human beings. I am no better than them simply because I was fortunate enough to be born here. That’s what I mean by dehumanization. The way you talk about these people – they are people, after all – is just unfortunate.
Brian,
The house analogy is quite appropriate. We as americans own this nation…or we use too. This is America’s house, we have a front door (immigration system), use it. Don’t come through the windows and not expect me to be upset. What’s wrong with the house analogy?
HUH? Facts are facts, you love throwing around the words, you’re wrong. Only liberals decide on which Constitutional rights apply. Illegal aliens don’t have the right to vote, property, pay income taxes, etc. What type of Constitutional rights are they deserving of…the right to a trial? That’s called the Judicial System.
Having a little self-respect doesn’t hurt.
John, I use then words “you’re wrong” when you are wrong. No, illegals cannot vote, but they have as much right to buy property as anybody else, they have to pay taxes, just like anybody else, and they have many of the other rights contained in the bill of rights that anyone, foreign or U.S. citizen has when they are on American soil. That’s not my opinion. That is simply legal fact.
I have plenty of self respect. And I can respect illegals as people, even though I disagree with their conduct. The more important question is why can’t you?
I do respect illegal aliens…but I did not receive your manual on “How to Respect Illegal Manuals” but I’ll be waiting by the mailbox.
With the likes of La Raza, Muslim Brotherhood and other terrorist groups hiding behind anti-American & racial tension. It is a shame that the lives of innocent Americans are at jeopardy in the name of political correctness. Getting a hold on the immigration system should not be a matter of making you feel good about respecting illegal aliens. Even though terrorist groups comes here through legal means also we need to move this discussion pass the point of enforcing basic levels before we can get to the complex ones. Not about a system that is already in place.
Meanwhile, tax payer money is being wasted in courts by the federal government in fighting the rights of states and citizens. Boy, could we use a repeal of the seventeenth Amendment! It would save us billions in earmarks and attorney fees. And it would hold our federal government accountable.
Marring the lines of immigration borders with rhetoric of racism and being disrespectful only complicates the discussion. It is not that difficult. We have a naturalization system, use it. We have borders enforce them. And if I as an American citizen was being respected, then our local communities wouldn’t have to pass immigration laws.
Mr. Jackson,
Are you suggesting La Raza is a terrorist organization? You have demonstrated, at the most base level, why the immigration debate is so difficult to resolve.
It’s interesting, I have a great aunt that was smuggled in through Ellis Island, had she been discovered the entire family would have been sent back to Russia and I would not be alive. When you talk with people who have questioned their own ancestors journey to America, it is actuallly quite amazing how many people have a family member who did not follow the rules. It might be a learning experience for you to do your own research.
It use to be that if you came here improperly, you just “adjusted your status”. One day “illegal” next day “legal”. Did that change the character of that person, no, just paperwork did.
This issue is racial, you actually did a fine job of proving that by mentioning la raza. Why La Raza? Well, just like how Southern Border enforcement is interchangeable with illegal immigration enforcement, it’s about the brown people who speak spanish.
No one is talking about the Russians, the Africans, the Pakistani’s, Indian’s, etc who are also here with expired visas.
Our country if facing an economic crisis not seen since the great depression, we are drowning in debt people don’t have jobs and yet, people like you, want to waste our precious resources on less than 4% of our popoulation? Could we achieve zero illegal immigration, sure, become a police state and mine the borders, and spend billions to hunt “them illegals”. However, THAT does not sound like America to me.
Also, if you read history, you cleary find immigration has ALWAYS been contentious, ergo the Johnson-Reed Act in 1924, pushed by the KKK, whose intent was to keep out Jews, Italians, Poles, and other “inferior” eastern europeans.
Do you think the fat cats on Wall Street or poor vulnerable people are more at fault for our present situation? Is illegal immigration an issue, yes, it is the hysterical crisis that people portend it to be, umm, no.
Elena, I am 25% Cherokee but if not for immigrants, I and most of my children and grandchildren would not have blue eyes. To get REALLY REAL much of my family were killed in the Trail of Tears, the ORIGINAL natural born citizens.
The America we know today was founded on immigrants. John, I’m betting you are a Heinz 57 like the rest of us.
Amen Kathy!
Eleana,
No I didn’t suggest that “La Raza” was a terrorist group but a Los Angeles school teacher did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koLX6-XtAnA
…and we pay this guy.
As for your smuggling immigrants, there are some who came from Cuba too? And they would have a path to citizenship if our government enforced the immigration law. The federal government would have scrutiny over the system to allow exceptions for people to seek citizenship under certain circumstances but they do not want to make these decisions except for a blanket amnesty.
You are using a liberal tactic for your debate by injecting an emotional argument. So you tell nice stories that are exceptions to the rule. If our federal government was doing their job they would be able to protect these people and scrutinize these exceptions but they don’t want to make these decisions. As you advocate the KKK, your life and the poor into the argument of enforcing our borders and our immigration laws. these factors have nothing to do with enforcing our immigration laws. So, again, you’re complicating the debate injecting your emotional stimulus.
We do not need to become a police state for immigration. We’re becoming a police state because our federal government has pitted us against each other. They inject false arguments into a cut and dry situation…we have a path to naturalization, use it. Those that are in imminent danger, our federal government would provide authority to do so but they don’t.
Your life has nothing to do with the six lives that were taken in Manasses, how many lives have to pay for you’re (however old) circumstance on being born in America to immigrants? Quit defending a government that is not upholding their responsibilities…and the costs involved with immigration cannot be calculated by the CBO.
Eleana & Kathy,
And the same argument applies to you Kathy, we are asked to pay retributions for things that happened decades ago. We are all immigrants, or offspring of ones or even Heinz 57. We were all either naturalized through the process or by the best president ever, Ronald Reagan, in the 1980s. But above all…we are all AMERICANS, it’s a shame that you don’t wish to be.
I know that I should be using my gentle voice…sorry ladies but it’s tough to argue this point on an emotional level. It’s pretty cut and dry no matter how many sad stories we tell from both sides whether it’s a elderly farmer getting killed trying to protect himself or someone coming here decades ago.
Bottom line, our federal government is neglecting their job and that cannot be defended. No matter what type of names you wish to call me.
I don’t know who you are JJ but I bleed red, white and blue. Your statements no longer merit reply. Have a great day.
My apologies if I offended. It’s a shame the debate is left for another day…as it was in 1986.
You are more than welcome to waste your tax dollars, just don’t volunteer mine.
As far as the evolution of immigration law, I believe it is invaluable to understand the historical foundation of any issue, it helps inform our present opinion.
I am very American, in fact, as American as you, we simply disagree. Sorry you don’t seem to believe in the most basic tenent of Democracy, freedom of different ideas.
Yes, Cuba is an excellent example, wet feet, illegal, dry feet, legal. Seems like a pretty silly way to get proper status.
My argument is that we would be able to deal with these human rights issues if we had a system that was available to take care of the basic issues. We would be able to attend to the people trying to escape oppression and they would not need to hide in closets but we can’t.
As for spending your tax money, that’s why I advocate for a limited government. They should tend to one of few responsibilities. You cannot possibly say $3.6 trillion is being utilized efficiently. Meanwhile, the federal government has taken over healthcare, businesses and mortgages, so you can’t be too concerned about your tax money.
So, I’m curious as to the school teacher from LA that’s waging war on the frail white guy? Am I supposed to ignore that?
Americas first immigrants into different lands:
WHY THE INDIANS HAVE SO MANY TRIBES
An Indian Legend
So many moons ago that one cannot count them, all of our people lived underground. We lived in total darkness. Our animals lived with us.
One of our animals was very brave! This was a ground mole. One day the mole crawled far, far away from all of us. It crawled up and up. After a blond time, it saw a hole. The mole crawled through that hole and saw light! It saw trees and rivers and sky! Here there was no darkness. Here there was beauty and the mole crawled back through the hole as fast as it could. The mole told our people of the wonders it had seen. Alas, the light had made it blind. (That is why all moles are blind to this very day.)
Our people were so excited! There was light out there! There was beauty! We could hardly wait to climb out and see for ourselves!
And that is just what we did. Indian after Indian climbed through that hole.
Our people saw the world and all of its beauty for the first time.
More and more Indians came out of the hole into the wonderful world.
But then a terrible thing happened! A very fat Indian got stuck in the hole! Our people tried pushing. Our people tried pulling. Push, pull, push, pull-push and pull some more!
But that fat Indian was stuck for good!
So, all of our people did not leave the darkness. But we who did kept walking on and on.
Soon, we came to a river. A beautiful bird flapped its wings three times. The waters of the river parted. We walked across the dry path of the river.
Many, many of us crossed the river. But lo! After a while the bird flew away. The waters came back together. Some of our people could not get across.
After several moons, we came to a very high mountain. Some kind deer led us across the rocky, high mountain. But pretty soon, some eagles chased the deer away. Many of my people did not cross the mountain.
Those of us who did make it across the mountain soon found ourselves in the thickest forest in the world! We could not even see each other because of all the trees! We tried to stay together, but we could not. A few of us went this way. A few of us went that way. All over the place we were scattered. And that is why to this very day we all live in different places.
Kathy, I’m lost.
John, the only manual you need on how to respect illegal aliens is the one you find in the pews on Sunday. Take a few minutes and read it sometime.
Brian,
It is a good analogy. They broke into our Country and have overstayed their visit. What other types of criminals do you support? So, I guess that means you respect Hitler? I’m a Christian too and the Bible says stealing and not following the law is a bad thing.
La Raza may not be a terrorist group, but they are a hate group for sure.
Brian,
Do you think it is okay with God that people lie and cheat? Do you think is okay for people to cross the border illegally? Do you think it is okay for illegal aliens to steal, to rape and murder?
Why do you suppose Israel was not allowed to take land from Esau (Edom), Moab or Ammon (Deut 2:1-19)? I guess sovereignty was important to God. He established it. So you think it is okay with God to show partiality (Deut 1:17, Num 15:29-31)? Read Romans 13.
I will say this, because this country has turned its back on God and worshipped the creature instead of the Creator we are being disciplined by this invasion. See the book of Judges. Yes, we allow same sex marriages and kill babies in the womb…Romans 1:18-32 Deut 28:43-45.
So you think it is okay for illegal aliens to break our laws but citizens have to keep them? You are fulfilling Isaiah 5:20-23.
I posted the Cherokee folklore, (story passed down from generation to generation), hoping someone would pick up the analogy. The Cherokee had their own story why the nation of Indians spread out and developed their own tribes. So when the white man came, the Indians didn’t kill off everyone who “trespassed” on their land because they understood the story of light. If they believed the same way some on this post, no white man would have drove them off their lands to get the gold and settle, kill and strip them of all rights. They would have never allowed travelers (they would have been killed) and I would have brown eyes and so would all 12 human beings who came from my existence.
If you want to get real self righteous, go back further. This nation was founded by immigrants coming and stealing land, robbing and killing the people here to form their own nation not too long ago. Quite frankly, God owns this earth, not you, me or anyone else. You didn’t create it, and you aren’t going to take a single thing with you wherever you go at the end of your days.
You get real acquainted with the real history of the founding of this country before you bring God into your arguments.
Patty, where did I say I support illegal immigrants breaking our laws? I haven’t said that, and I don’t believe that. What I said was that the dehumanization of these people is wrong and that’s what I keep seeing from you and others when you talk about these people in this debate.
These people, regardless of what they have done, at least deserve the minimum respect any human being deserves. They are not less than human because they broke our laws. Even criminals are still human.
You may want to reread Matthew 25:31-45. Or perhaps John 8:7.
I do not support illegal immigration. I also do not support treating illegal immigrants like they are less than human, or worthy of the death penalty, or committing the most heinous of crimes. I do support rational laws designed to curb illegal immigration, including better enforcement of our employment laws against employers who use illegal immigrant labor and better tracking of non-citizens by ICE so we can stop people from overstaying their welcome.
I do not support the 21st century equivalent of pogroms that the kind of overheated rhetoric we’ve seen in this thread alone generates. These are people we are talking about. Remember that.
Thank you Brian.
Brian,
In what way are they being dehumanized? That is really a guestion begging epithet. Where is your proof that they are being dehumanized?
No, they are being treated like any other human being who beaks a law. They are personally responsible for their illegal actions and there are consequences for those actions. Romans 13.
Your reference to Matthew when taking in context refers to the Lord’s return after the Tribulation (during which many will suffer and be excuted for their testimony of Jesus). Only those who receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord are his brothers…Matthew 12:30.
Using John 8:7 is typical of those who know someone is doing wrong but doesn’t want them to incur the consequences. Of course when taken into context only Jesus can forgive sins and He was also pointing out to those who were going to stone the woman that they needed forgiveness from Him as well. But listen to what He said to the woman in verse 11 “She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condmen you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.” I suggest you read Matthew 7:21-23. Again read Romans 13. Read 1 Peter 13-20…the grace we receive is not a license to sin.
Yes, they are being treating exactly like human beings who break the law. They are being held responsible for their actions. In fact personal responsiblity is what God requires of us.
No, I am not one to wait for Sunday to pick up a Bible in the pew and just read along with the Pastor a couple of verses. I own a Bible. I read it everyday. I’ve read it several times from beginning to end because I want to know my Savior..Exodus 33:13, John 5:39. Again I will refer you to Matthew 7:21-23. I also refer you to Romans 3:8.
In fact you should read the entire book of Romans.
Maybe you need to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
Is a man who steals a loaf of bread to feed their family to be punished the same as one who robs a bank merely for the money?
We’re talking about people who are coming here for a better life and a system so broken that they are willing to risk their lives to be able to feed their children to get here. They aren’t coming for our wemmen and cars.
Besides, if the law is the law, then I don’t wanna hear any of you bitch about abortion. Or health care reform. Or your tax rate. Hell, why did we throw all that tea into the harbor anyway? The Tea Act was law!
There is man’s law, and then there is God’s law. Why on earth do you believe that Jesus would want you to drive people out of your neighborhoods merely because they want a better way of life?
Patty, go back and read the comments in this thread alone. Neither you nor any of the others arguing against Shaun have ever referred to these people as anything other than “illegal aliens” – as if one aspect of their lives defines who they are. All I’m asking is that we recognize that yes, these people have committed a crime, but that does not mean that they are all vicious baby killers.
You presume too much when you suggest that I may need to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I do have one. So does Shaun. And I will be praying that He unhardens your heart, and cures you of your pharisee-like tendencies. You may have read the Bible backwards and forwards, but the way you’ve comported yourself in this thread – calling people idiots and such – demonstrates to me that you don’t understand what you’ve read.
I believe the comments were idiotic because they are logical fallicies.
The term illegal alien is used by our court system. That is the term they use for people who are in this country illegally.
It is a correct term.
If you want to have a rational debate you need to stop using question begging epithets but you can’t because you have no justification for your arguments. You’ve made many incorrect assumptions. Now you are baiting with the term illegal alien in which you are implying that is a racist term. You either are ignorant of the correct terminology or you are deliberately using question begging epithets because you have an a priori commitment to defending Shaun, the presence of illegal aliens and passing the buck to the federal government.
You keep digging a hole and your are actually proving my point… you have not rational justification for your arguments.
At least Shaun decided to stop blocking my comments. I suppose he blocked my comments when I linked to yet another crime committed by an illegal alien. Within the span of about four weeks we’ve had a car jacking, a sexual assault and a mass murder…crimes committed by illegal aliens.
I’m praying for you
sorry for the typos…trying to multi task.
Brian,
I saw your comments on another blog: http://www.novacommonsense.com/2011/02/18/the-rabid-pro-illegal-lobby/
You said you thought the moniker- psuedonym- Joe Mama was funny.
And you are criticizing me for using the term illegal alien which is the term used by our court system.
I’ll be saying another prayer for you
I’m not implying that “illegal alien” is racist. I’m saying that it’s dehumanizing. This isn’t court, and we’re not making legal arguments here. Whether or not it is a correct term is immaterial. It’s an easy way to try and reduce an issue that involves real people into demagoguery.
The justification for my arguments is clear – when people equate illegal immigration with an “invasion” of the United States that must be repelled through any means necessary, and when elected officials are saying their cities are on fire, the rhetoric is getting way too heated and we need to take it back a notch. The easiest way for me to justify taking it back a notch is to remind folks that regardless of the laws these people have violated, they remain people, and they should be judged individually, not en masse.
We don’t block comments here. If you put a link in your comment it was likely caught by the spam filter.
Logical fallacies are logical fallacies. Nothing idiotic about them. You have been belligerent throughout this thread. Do you honestly deny that? C’mon.
Besides, Joe Mama IS funny.
Patty, Don’t worry, he must be losing the argument because he needs to change the rules.
Believe me Patty, they don’t delete messages or they would be deleting mine. You arguments are tame.
Brian,
Damn…I guess I need to wait for that “How to debate” manual too? When am I getting these manuals, I’m going to be reading for years to figure out these rules. Luckily we have the FCC coming for Net Neutrality.
Why is it that your adding emotional symbols to words? Saying that we must use certain words because they evoke certain reaction of others is just wrong. That seems very narrow-minded and stifles the debate. Your argument is frail so your attacking the delivery.
Whether they’re called immigrates or aliens, they are the same and everyone knows who we’re talking about. State your case instead of worrying about how it is delivered. Stay focused.
BTW…if a person is an atheist, are they suppose to go to church to find this book of respect your talking about?
John, I’ve already stated my case – my case is about the rhetoric. That’s Shaun’s original point. It’s my point. The rhetoric is overheated. It shouldn’t be.
I could care less what you call them, so long as you acknowledge that they’re people and shouldn’t be judged collectively.
If they’re atheists, they should definitely go to church to find this book of respect I’m talking about. Or they can google it. Not hard to find.
Brian,
Illegal aliens is the proper term. They are being treated just like any other human being who breaks the law.
You and Shaun have made gross misrepresentations of our Rule of Law Resolution and the UVA report.
Idiotic- showing complete lack of thought or common sense-Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, 1996. When you commit logical fallacies (invalid arguments) and continue to defend them what else would you call it?
I’ve heard from a member of our local Republican party that Shaun has an ax to grind with some of our local Republican office holders and party members.
Apparently there is more to Shaun’s rhetoric than meets the eye so to speak.
Good day sir.
Patty, stop willfully mischaracterizing what I’ve stated. I haven’t mentioned the Rule of Law Resolution or the UVA report at all.
I have not committed a single logical fallacy. I’ve said things you disagreed with. That does not a logical fallacy make.
It’s unfortunate that you can’t address the points I’ve made and instead try to put words in my mouth. How is that “rational debate?”
Enjoy your Sunday.
Patti –
What possible axe do I have to grind against any local PWC Republican members?
The problem is that the only metric to measure the “success” of the probable cause ordinance in Prince William County is the 8,000 Hispanics that were driven out — half of whom were legal, law abiding AMERICAN CITIZENS who simply no longer felt welcome in Prince William. And yes, you and I both know there are some PWC politicians who want to take their local issues to the statewide level, so that they can use those sentiments to run for statewide office.
Now if these had been fiscally or socially conservative positions, I wouldn’t have had too much of an issue with it. In fact, local jurisdictions are constantly looking for innovative ways to combat what’s going on in Richmond — as the state government is intent on devolving a number of services to localities that are forcing our property tax rates to shoot through the roof. There are plenty of things conservative supervisors could be focusing on across Virginia that directly impact our way of life.
Instead… we have one supervisor in Prince William who is intent on using a “probable cause” ordinance as the fulcrum to turn his local issues into statewide ambitions.
I like Corey Stewart on a number of different issues. We’re both pro-life, we’re both pro-family, etc. But where he and I profoundly disagree is on how to tackle the problem of illegal immigration. For one, I am not willing to trample the Constitution in order to score political points, nor am I willing to give in to those who would turn this into an anti-Hispanic crusade. In fact, Corey should be taking that wing of the party head on — and it really, really bothers me that he is doing the opposite.
Now there have been a series of perfectly logical arguments that have been made to counter the repercussions of the so-called “rule of law” ordinance. They have simply been rejected as “illogical” or worse, which begs the question as to whether or not — for some — this is truly a policy argument, or whether this truly is an effort to weed out an undesirable demographic in Prince William County.
As for me, I will do everything in my power to block laws that have the repercussions of driving out an entire ethnic group and defining that as “success” for an ordinance, then seek to export that law to the rest of the Commonwealth. It is for the proponents of these laws to describe how its effects are not aimed at the Hispanic community, and moreover for these very same proponents to either justify or excise the racist elements invading the debate.
Until then, my objections stand. Too many moderate Republicans cloak themselves as conservatives by using illegal immigration as the cover. For one, “papers please” is the very sort of government that conservatives should be fighting against…
Delegate Miller Says Senate ‘Let Us Down’
Delegate Jackson Miller, R-Manassas, sounds off on how he feels about the Senate subcommittee killing his legislation and other House proposals to crack down on illegal immigration.
By Jeannette Porter | Email the author | February 20, 2011
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RICHMOND (CNS) – Delegate Jackson Miller, R-Manassas, was clear about how he felt after a Senate subcommittee killed his legislation and other House proposals to crack down on illegal immigration.
“The state Senate has let us down again,” he said. “They’ve chosen political correctness and expediency over public safety. More Virginians will die, and more will be raped, as a result of their actions – or should I say, failure to act.”
Miller’s comments came on the heels of an impassioned address to the House of Delegates in which he reacted to the Feb. 10 shooting in Manassas that left three people dead and three wounded. Police have charged Jose Oswaldo Reyes Alfaro, a native of El Salvador who was in the U.S. illegally and ordered deported in 2002.
In his speech to the House on Monday [Feb. 14], Miller called the crime a “violent heinous atrocity.””
“My city is falling apart,” he said. “What else is there to do but stand and scream?”
Miller cited eight instances since 2007 of violent crimes committed by “illegal criminal aliens with previous contact with the Virginia police.”
From 2000 to 2010, the number of Hispanics in the city of Manassas has more than doubled. In Manassas Park and Prince William County, the number of Hispanics has tripled.
This session, Jackson sponsored House Bill 1934, which sought to allow Virginia State Policy to work with the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency in enforcing federal immigration laws. On Wednesday, the immigration subcommittee of the Senate Courts of Justice Committee killed the proposal.
“My bill had to do with illegal immigrants who are committing crimes,” Miller said. “The fiscal impact would have been minimal. The feds are doing the right thing here,” by offering localities the cooperation of ICE in enforcing immigration law, “but it’s up to us to ask.”
Miller said that his bill was not anti-Latino but anti-criminal and that it had broad constituent support.
“I’ve run three elections in the last five years. My district is a swing district; it went 60 percent for Obama and 60 percent for McDonnell. The polling on the immigration issue is overwhelmingly in favor of cracking down on criminal illegal aliens,” Miller said.
“A huge cross-section of my district supports it. African-Americans support it. I’m working with the Latino community as hard as I can. The majority of the Latinos in my district are here legally, but the politically-correct forces you saw at that subcommittee hearing are convinced that the bills are anti-Latino. They’re not. I’ve tried to emphasize: We’re dealing with criminal illegal aliens.”
Miller said he believes that had his bill cleared the subcommittee, it would have passed 30-10 on the Senate floor. He has not given up, either: “The Redskins are a pretty lousy team, right? But guess what? They beat the Packers, who won the Super Bowl. That’s why they play the game, every Sunday. And that’s why I play this game, Monday through Friday.”
Shaun,
Once again doing the work that Americans won’t do!
Last week, Alexander Rivas, 18, was arrested by Alexandria police, following an investigation that began in November, when the father of a 14-year-old runaway told police his daughter was living with Rivas. Court documents state that the girl was found in the gang member’s apartment and she was being used as a prostitute.
According to prosecutors, Rivas ran a prostitution ring, operating in Virginia, Maryland and the District of Columbia, using underage runaways. The affidavit states that the business catered to “construction workers and illegal immigrants.”
I had a building under construction several years ago and the drywall contractor showed up with several day laborers one of whom was an illegal running a dope ring. Made a few sales on our job site including one to an off duty officer. It created one hell of a mess for me but in the end there was an arrest made and a large cooler with ice cold drinks disguizing the dope stash that was siezed. I was later informed the illegal had a warrant out and was wanted for murder but with a fake ID he was whereabouts unknown for years.
In the construction business cheap labor purveyors from south of the border have a sort of gang mentality and help their own to help themselves and do little if any screening because in many cases they are one and the same running a racket while the day job merely provides cover.. This is very common place in Va Beach but our city government has failed to much about it.
Kenny,
Why do you insist on pushing the idea that only illegals are hispanics?
I realize you can’t, but just to prove how very wrong you are, please provide the language in the Prince William effort,that singles out only those illegals that happen to be haspanic are to be affected by the effort. Otherwise you just plain silly ranting on about how this only affects hispanics.
And, where is you concern about Americans and legal immigrants who have been impacted by illegal aliens? And, please provide how breaking the law and benefiting from it is a conservative trait and how that is good for Conservatives.
Brain,
There are a lot of people who want a better life. Should we all just break the law in order to have a better life?
That’s not the point, Citizen, and you know it.
Brian,
Citizen is correct and it is the point.
Fact: the Prince William County Rule of Law Resolution checks legal status of ALL arrested. Yes Brian, even your legal status will be checked if you are arrested in PWC. No one group is targeted by the resolution that is why there have not been any lawsuits (there were threats and attempts but nothing came of them).
Fact: The UVA report of which I copied and pasted the summary in a previous comment indicated that there was no mass exodus of immigrants. Only illegal aliens left and a lot of them were MS13 gang members. A gang unit PWC detective was quoted in the paper saying how effective the PWC ROL resolution was in gang members leaving the area. I am truly grateful for that. I have enough pictures of gang graffiti to wall paper several rooms.
Also the attack on Jackson Miller is totally unwarranted. In fact his bill was to codify the state police into the 287g program of which our Governor has already entered the state police.
These are facts that Mr. Kenney has for his convenience overlooked. I’ve noticed he seems to have a pattern of doing this based on comments on other threads.
It is a shameful thing for a public office holder to lie about another jurisdictions laws and reports about those laws.
To write this article after three people were murdered is totally insensitive and unconscionable.
Brian and Shaun, might I suggest you buy this:
http://www.mybluebonnets.com/servlet/the-470/700–dsh–BS-Repellant/Detail
Use it to spray your monitor whenever BS appears on the screen. I hope it helps.
Kathy,
Brian and Shaun…BS repellant…that’s a good one.
Greg can use it if Brian and Shaun (BS) appear on his screen……LOL.
Jokes about BS are funny, but Joe Mama isn’t?
Kathy walked into that. Ask her.
I meant Brian and Shaun buy it to guard against the BS of others on this post. It seems some are determined to purposefully “misunderstand” Shaun and Brian as a means to their own ends and it shows.
It’s not to hard to understand a lie. They lied about the PWC ROL. That is a fact and anyone can look up our ROL resolution on the Prince William County web site and see for themselves exactly what it says.
I would post a link but your friends block me everytime I try to post a link.
Therefore, I can conclude that not only are they lying about the PWC ROL they are also preventing any links to the PWC ROL in order that no one (of those who read this thread) can find out they are lying.
Of course, there are those people who seem to bow down and kiss their feet and wouldn’t bother to look up the ROL resolution because in their eyes they consider their source, Shaun and Brian, to be incapable of lying or making a mistake…talk about being easily led astray.
If you think I’m wrong about the PWC ROL, print it out on this thread, the whole thing, and show me. Show us where it says it targets Hispanics. Prove it.
Ask yourself this, if the PWC ROL resolution were un-Constitutional how come we haven’t been sued?
In the words of a former President who I have admired, “There you go again.”
When have i ever mentioned PWC ROL?
No one is blocking your links. We have a spam filter. I will release the link if I can find it. When I do, does that mean you lied about us blocking it?
No, because a couple of days ago I tried it and it didn’t go through. Of course we can’t go back in time so I can’t prove that. I do know your server went down a couple of times. I’m not sure why that happened or if that was something on my end.
I’ll try again. I just got kicked off with message” 405 method not allowed.” So, tell me what that means.
Here is just one link but you have to click on the others to see the resolutiion. Resolutions 08-500 and 07-894 cover most of it:
http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=040059000300002294
Wow, I didn’t think that would post because after I hit the submit comment button I got kicked off.
And that was just one link.
Brian,
What do you mean that’s not the point, and I know it?
What I mean is that no one here is saying what these people did is okay. We’re not condoning violating the law. I can understand why they come here, but that doesn’t mean that I think it’s completely justified and they deserve no punishment for breaking the law.
At the same time, I don’t support treating them all like they’re potential child rapists like Patty does. They are people, and they deserve at least the benefit of the doubt that their only crime (besides the ones everyone commits every day like speeding) is coming here illegally.
Any time anyone criticizes the lengths some of our elected officials go to demagogue these issues, inevitably you will hear three arguments:
1) You condone breaking the law and coddling child rapists.
2) You don’t live here, so you don’t understand.
3) You don’t care that they’re taking our jobs/slots at UVA/welfare/etc.
I’m tired of it. If we can’t have an adult conversation about adult issues, we will never come to a rational solution to this problem.
Brian,
And, I’m sure you feel the same when people on the other side call anyone who wants to do something about illegals bigots, racists, etc.
And, yes it does matter if one lives in an area affected by illegals. Just as one might not understand a true snow storm if they’ve never lived in upper NY or Western PA.
There was another huge bust today of a Multi-State gang that was making and selling fake social security numbers, etc. Guess who their customers were? One guess, it was not Citizens, rather illegals. So, when you try and compare illegals and Citizens, it just sounds silly. One belongs here, and one does not. Do we feel sorry for the drunk who got busted for DUI? Of course not, and that is why crimes against drinking and driver are getting harsher, not softer. Nobody says ahh, we should feel sorry for their family, and not put the drunk in jail, because their family will suffer. But, that’s what we hear all the time about illegals. When people make poor choices, it is their fault for whatever happens to them or their family.
We already have a solution. The problem is that we have too many people who simply do not want to enforce our laws. Enforce the laws we already have. The entire reason we have anywhere between 10 and 20 million illegals is because of the lack of enforcement over many years. People know they can come here illegally and have a very low chance of being caught. Rewarding that is not a good thing and is not a conservative value.
This is yet another reason why we need to rid our Nation of these criminals.
http://www.wfsb.com/news/27009127/detail.html
Yet another reason to rid the Country of illegals.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/11/04/2009-11-04_ms13_gang_puts_out_hit_on_fbi_agent_assigned_to_crackdown.html
I don’t understand why the concept of applting the rule of Law equally to everyone is controversial among conservatives. I think everyone agrees that this country needs to control its borders. Not everyone who wants to live in the U.S. can do so, so there is no choice but to enforce our immigration laws. If the national government fails to do so, then states and localities must do whatever they can to take up the slack. This is not an “anti-hispanic” position. Citizens of every heritage should support a vigoruos defense of the nation’s border integrity.
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