On the Israel, Gaza, and the botched raid
By D.J. McGuire | Tuesday, June 1st, 2010 | Policy
What should we make of the Israeli raid of the flotilla that was trying to get to Gaza? The question can not be answered simply.
First of all, the raid itself was, at best, a partial success. Israel can now be certain no weapons are headed to Gaza, but the political cost was heavy, and probably not necessary.
This is not to say the decision to interdict the vessels was a mistake. As both the Associated Press (via KTLA) – long a dupe for Palestinian terrorists – and Seth Freeman (hardly a Likudnik) of the Guardian (UK) note, Israel repeatedly offered to send everything from the ships but weapons into Gaza. All the Israelis asked was the chance to inspect the ships at an Israeli port.
If the people on board the ships were truly interested in helping Gaza, they would have agreed to the offer. Instead, they refused, and forced the Israelis hand.
That said, one can choose to do the right thing and still do it badly, which is exactly what the IDF appears to have done here. Already, two alternative options are hitting the blogosphere: the “shock-and-awe” option (my term), from Noah Pollak, which would have sent the IDF in armed to the teeth and ready to drive the point home at the first sign of trouble, and the disable-the-ship option, presented by retired Israeli general Shlomo Brown (AP/KTLA story). Personally, I’d prefer the latter option (it neutralizes the threat of weapons hitting Gaza and would have allowed the Israelis some time to get their side of the story out).
However, this tactical error is being used by Israel’s opponents to challenge policy issues where Israel is completely in the right. The Isrealis have every right to maintain a blockade on Gaza to end its role as a Hamas missile launchpad. They have every right to defend themselves. They have every right to board or disable a vessel that tries to run a blockade. They have every right to use maximum force when their attempts to board said ship are met with violent resistance, as this was. That Israel should have expected, likely could have avoided, that violent resistance neither absolves nor excuses those who attacked the Israeli soldiers.
There are other factors to remember as well. The mullahcracy of Iran is rushing headlong to becoming a nuclear power. Hezbollah still has its own private army in Lebanon.
Meanwhile – and most importantly – in Palestine and Gaza, Hamas is still Hamas; Fatah is still Fatah; and opposing both of them is very, very dangerous.
Here are the critical points.
Could the Israelis have handled the flotilla incident better? Yes.
Could “handling it better” include allowing the ships to pass unfettered into Gaza? Absolutely not.
As for the larger matter: do the Palestinians deserve their own state? I believe they do.
Are they be better off trapped in a tyrannical state (or, in this case, statelet) than they were under Israeli occupation? Honestly, I don’t think so.
Given the circumstances on the ground, must we wait until Palestine can build a republican form of government before letting a state form? I’m afraid so.
Finally, are the Israelis obligated to let said state form as an unvarnished, irridentist, tyranny? No, they are not.
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34 Responses to "On the Israel, Gaza, and the botched raid"
You’re wrong on the NBA.
This is certainly a balanced look at the issue and I applaud Mr McGuire for even taking it up. He is willing to wade into the hornet’s nest when he is sure to stir up the hornets!
At the risk of being one of them hornets, let me point out that if we are going to have Two States for Two Peoples, it should not matter what form of government the Palestinians decide upon as long as that government ceases hostilities against Israel. The Palestinians should be able to decide for themselves but Israel should have robust rights to self defense.
I am going counter my own remarks (and once again risking being the hornet myself) by pointing out Israel at times pokes sticks into the hornets’ nest and then expects us to side with them while they wonder why the hornets come out of the nest and sting them.
LD,
I’ve even heard the three state solution suggested: Israel, a secular Palestinian state in the West Bank, and Muslim fundamentalists in Gaza.
Given that Israel had a declared blockade of Gaza, under international law they have the right to stop, board, and search any vessels trying to run the blockade.
“Given the circumstances on the ground, must we wait until Palestine can build a republican form of government before letting a state form? I’m afraid so.”
Go re-read your history, preferably not the censored version.
Gaza was forced into democratic elections some years ago by the United States and Israel. Everyone knew Hamas was going to win because they are wildly popular, many people were saying don’t force these elections because Hamas would win.
What happened? We did it anyway, Hamas won, and we immediately cut off all ties.
This is a crucial point that should not be left out. Were you truly ignorant as to its existence?
I would also like to make the point that any teacher, doctor, scientist, or government employee is considered a member of Hamas and therefore a “terrorist”. So when Israel says Hamas hides among schools and hospitals, that is kind of a misnomer…Hamas owns all the schools and hospitals, so does that justify killing teachers and children?
One more point;
If you were living in a slum blockaded by a foreign power and you had never lifted arms against that power but instead tried to just take care of your family and then that power invaded and bombed the UN school your children went to as Israel did…would you not then take up arms?
I’m not saying either side is in the right, because both are hugely in the wrong. The point is that you cannot blame many of the people in Gaza for resorting to violence. If another country invaded America under the pretense of “freeing” us, we would all be conducting guerrilla warfare till there was no one left.
It is very important to at least make an attempt to view this complex issue from both sides and have empathy for the people you may not agree with.
I find it interesting that it only takes a few hours for the UN to condemn Israel in this situation but can’t make a decision on North Korea sinking a South Korean submarine.
I’ll throw a swift, libertarian-leaning wrench into this…
I’m not so sure why or how such an act can be embraced or defended. There is no legitimate defense of such aggression, regardless of the interests of Israel.
Also, the idea that a society such as the one in Gaza will form a republican government in the near future is simply unrealistic.
President Ronald Reagan said, “We do not understand the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics.” He knew that an attempt of spurring or installing republican or democratic government within Middle Eastern culture would ultimately be a failure.
This has proven to be true in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.
Just my two cents…
Israel cannot afford to be on the defensive, they know it all too well. Their survival in this day and age is regrettably to either maintain their offense posture or die.
Since I am not reading it here, I’ll break bad and call it like I see it.. Chicago Thug friend Barack Hussein Obama’s past thug network activists are behind the Rachael Corrie Flotilla purposely designed from the start to exploit the media via Israel’s offensive posture by provoking them. Any fool knows there is a war going on and there is a TON O MONEY available from radical islamic terrorist finaciers for the groups who penetrate the media for attention to their cause. This is an alliance between radical islam and radical anti Americans. Chalk one up for Barack Obama’s decades long successful outreach to the radical activists of the world.. it’s in his upbringing folks.. he was imprinted by these activist thugs in his youth and has successfully planted many of them in his cabinet.
LD,
Based on history, I have concluded that the only type of Palestine that would leave Israel in peace is one with a republican form of government.
Chris,
That vote was not free. Every competitve option on the ballot was a terrorist group. Those who would speak out against them risk life and limb. The painful reality is that the greatest damage done to Palestine has been done first by its own tyrants, and secondly by its Arab neighbors.
Israel has been more than willing to allow Palestinians to form a state.
However, the Palestians are not one people. They never really were, they are a mixture of Jordanian, Egyptian, and other Arab nationalities who have basically dropped their old allegiances to their former countries so that they may deny the Jews the rights to the land of Israel.
The name “Palestine” is merely a draw on the Philistine culture that antagonized the Hebrews over 2000 years ago. The Romans named the area Palestine to mock the Jews and the Jew hating jihadists have been more than happy to revive the name.
So if the Palestinians want a state, then they must prove themselves responsible enough to govern one.
And if Egypt and Jordan really want a Palestinian state so much, then why are they unwilling to make any concessions with their land?
DJ,
If the vote was not free, why did Israel and the US push so hard for the elections. Go back and re-read the history and you will see that we pushed incredibly hard for the election. Israel should have known better.
I have no problem with Israel doing what it feels necessary, it has every right, but we also have a right to criticize.
If Israel did not realize that being the aggressor was playing right into their enemy’s hand, then they are not nearly as smart as many people give them credit for.
Steve, read the history of Palestine. You are buying into an alternate version of the truth, also known as a lie. There was a substantial Palestinian/Arab and Christian culture living in Palestine when the Jews came from Europe. What you are spouting is a lie, total propaganda. No history book agrees with your prejudiced version. Idiot.
The Jews are the newcomers. The Arabs, both Muslim and Christian had lived there for centuries if not millenia. This came out of Wikipedia which should be an easy source to reference if one is interested in the truth and not distortion.
‘In 1920, the League of Nations’ Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine stated that there were 700,000 people living in Palestine:
Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or—a small number—are Protestants. The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions.[196]“
“Turbo,” what about AIPAC’s influence on America’s support of Israel? Do you ever think about that?
unfortunately for Israel this incident occurred in international waters. and I am guessing that the process of getting legitimate supplies into Gaza is not so simple either.
IMHO, if Israel really wanted to address this issue they would expedite the shipment of legitimate goods into Gaza and only intercept ships within their territorial waters.
John, you called, I’m here.. How bout that aipac influence.. What would you like for me to think about? My ancestors have been kicked around a bit and some of us are fighting back. Wandered enough already bro..
Amit, getting non explosive non weaponry into Gaza is relatively easy. Stop the BS. The flotilla is not an aid mission bud.. it’s a media magnet.
@turbo, don’t you think Israel fell into this trap a little too easily? I sympathize with Israel greatly but they have a habit of doing things just slightly overboard (no pun intended) that makes them lose critical goodwill with others
So too for the Palestinians “Turbo”. We give tons of money to Israel to prop up their economy and to support their military. That is more than enough to offset the money from radical islamic terrorists, generally meaning our Saudi Arabian friends.
By the way, although I’m not a big fan of Obamas he was not imprinted in his youth by activist thugs. He was raised in Indonesia and Hawaii by a white parent and grandparents. I would say he learned his activism later.
@Amit, No I do not feel Israel fell for a trap. They knew this was provacative long before they knocked over the media cams and stage lights that were onboard the ship to catch the action.. The ship was rigged for media..
Visit the region and get back to BD..
@John, Many Palestinians who befriended Israelis and worked together were decapitated by Hamas. As for your comment “That is more than enough to offset the money from radical islamic terrorists, generally meaning our Saudi Arabian friends.” I disagree with that comment. Not all people are enemies over there in spite of what media states. Again, visit the region and report back.
As for Obama, his parents and grandparents have a history that is tough to refute.. including the apparent fact that Obama may be a distant relative of George Bush lol.. http://www.wargs.com/political/obama.html
However John, there seems to be a disagreement as to whether or not any people in Barack Obama Jr’s youth were thugs or not. I guess it matters what the definition of “IS” is or something along those lines http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas-communist-mentor/
John,
First off, you are the second person that I have debated on this issue that has used Wikipedia as a primary source. Wikipedia is not a scholarly source and it is not always reliable. I am not disputing your numbers, however, saying that Wikipedia is an easily accessed source of truth is not always accurate.
To address your claims concerning the Jews living in the region. You seem to assume that the Jews claim rests only on maodern history, when in fact, the Jews have maintained a prescence in the region since ancient times. There has been a consistent Jewish community in the region for thousands of years. It is the Jewish homeland. The area was VERY scarcely populated at the end of the 18th century, however, there were still Jews there. The Arabs, Turks, and even the British have come and or gone, but the Jews are the longest surviving continuous community in that region. And their claims to the land are as valid as the claim that the French have on their homeland in France.
As to the accuracy of my claim concerning the the term “Palestine.” Archaelogists have just recently discovered the term Palestine being used in ancient texts. The term is associated with the Philistine people, who were of Greek origin. The Romans changed the name of the region from “Judea” to “Palestinia” after the Jewish revolt in AD 70. That is an accurate statement.
The whole idea of a “Palestinian” state did not get serious traction until after the 1967 Yom Kippur War. It was after this war that the surrounding nations realized that Israel could not be conquered by direct military assault. So these nations resorted to using the idea of a Palestian state as a tool to employ UN action against Israel.
There are questions that need to be answered.
Why have the surrounding Arab nations denied some Palestinian refugees entry into their countries and out of Palestine?
The answer to this is simple. They want the people of Gaza especially, to be imprisoned in this strip of land. Without significant Arab populations they cannot argue for autonomy against Israel.
The sad part is that Arabs living in Israel have more freedom than those Arabs living in Gaza or the West Bank. There is even an Arab political party in the Israeli Knesset.
Sorry for the long rant on my part. However, these are points which are demanding to be made.
“Yom Kippur War”
Should be Six-Day War
Although the Israelis are certainly the good guys in the Middle East, sometimes they make it awful hard to root for them by doing dumb things…
UNTIL you remember that they are in a seemingly endless war with an enemy who believe that using suicide bombers to blow up children and firing missles indiscriminatly into civilian settlements are legitimate means of waging war.
Steve, it’s accurate to say that few Jews existed in Israel at the beginning of the twentieth century and their Muslim and Christians co-inhabitants of the land of Palestine were probably all of the same Semitic race, the only difference being their religion and cultures. To say that Palestine was not heavily populated is an apologetic position used by Zionists to rationalize taking the land, by hook and crook from the inhabitants by outsiders. If you remember history the Jews resorted to terrorism and theft to achieve their goals and continue to do so. Some people think this is wrong and others don’t really care. I just don’t see how trying to rewrite history to
say the local Arabs and Christians that had lived in Palestine for centuries before the Russian and European Jews arrived were never there makes any sense at all. Many farming and herding areas were fairly sparsely populated, still, the vast majority of Palestinians were Arabs, even in 1920. Look at the quote I used from Wiki, it is a valid historical source. Even if Wiki has errors it is difficult to argue with a report from the League of Nations before the politicization of this issue since the 1940′s.
If you’re going to steal land from people and have already gotten away with it why apologize? This conflict will probably end sadly for both the Palestinians and Israelis. I would love to see a peaceful solution but the ball is in Israel’s court and so far they are continuing to marginalize the original inhabitants of Palestine. Their Arab neighbors aren’t responsible for Israel’s actions.
“Turbo”, I realize that Islam is not monolithic nor do I believe that radical Islamic financiers have infiltrated our media as much as AIPAC has. You may like Israel’s influence in American politics, I don’t.
Obama’s family friend was a Communist? Horror! Communism is not against the law in our country the last I checked. One person got to Barack when he was young and subverted him? It’s too much of a conspiracy theory for me to take seriously. Barack is no Communist nor in the hands of radical Islamic financiers. That pit bull Rahm Emmanuel is as pro Israeli as anyone could get and he’s Obama’s right hand man.
OK John, kill all jews and peace will reign throughout the world. As for Rahm, he is an a$$h0I3, just as bad as Obama, maybe worse.
Daniel Pipes was interviewed by Pat Robertson recently and this is arguably the best analytical coverage on this topic I have seen to date http://www.danielpipes.org/8455/flotilla-raid-war-for-world-future
John,
You see, now you have destroyed your case because, even if the cities did have a significant population around the middle of the ninteenth century, we find that in 1860, the Jews made up a majority of Jerusalem’s population. However, by your own figures the area was sparsely populated. This is not an apologetic position, it is simply a historical fact. The area was sparsely populated, but the Jews maintained consistent residency. Regardless of who else lived there, the land has always been the homeland of the Jewish people, and even when the Arabs conquered it, they still ruled over a subjucated Jewish population, who maintained original rights to the land.
The Jews fought for their independence, just as America did. I am sure that some of the British Parliament members in the 1770′s looked at our guerilla tactics and considered them to be what you have described the Jewish tactics as being. If one truly investigates the incidents to which you refer one will find that the Jewish fighters went out of their way to avoid civilian casualties and also there were serious attempts on the part of the Jews to avoid British militry casualties. Keep in mind that around that time, many Jews were being deported out of what was at the time British Palestine and were being sent back to the Holocaust of Nazi Germany. There were acts of desperation, not as sinister as you would suggest.
You still have not disproven my contention.
1)The Jews have ancient rights to their land.
2)The Palestianian state is simply a tool that is being employed against Israel by Iran and others, and “Palestine” is not yet ready to govern itself, because the only thing that unites them as a people is a hatred of another people. This is not a sound basis for a state.
Nothing you have argued has disproven any of my points above mentioned.
Steve, please cite your proof source. I cited the League of Nations report of 1920. Did many Jews leave Palestine from 1860 to 1920? Please explain.
As for the “ancient rights to land” argument should we modern US citizens give our land back to “Native Americans”?
The Palestinian state will never happen. You and I both know this. I was just seeing what you knew about Palestine. Your talking points appear to be from Rush who is a worse proof source than Wikipedia and certainly the League of Nations report. Also, probably the Arabs living in Palestine in the 19th and 20th centuries were descendants of the ancient Jews sporting another religion. Prodigal son anyone?
The Palestinian state will not happen John, that was never the intent of islamic extremists. It is a shame though that moderate muslims are denied the right to pursue peaceful coexistence primarily by radical muslimes and to a lesser extent radical jews which to be fair make up a sizable minority over there.
If Israelis drop their weapons, Israeli Christians, jews, muslims and others will die en masse.. If radical islamic extremists drop theirs, there will be wide spread peace.
Hey “Turbo”, don’t you guys stick together? You don’t like Rahm? Are you really listening to that Christian bigot Pat Robertson?
Don’t put words into my mouth, I have never advocated killing anyone. All I seek is fairness for all. The Palestinian issue should be resolved to reduce the threat of violence otherwise the Middle East remains a powder keg. Mistakes have been made on both sides but the Israeli’s hold the cards. America can’t protect Israel forever.
Hey “John”, like a canary in a coal mine, the great thing about bigotry or anti-semitism is it lets everyone know who the dirt bags are. So John, how would you resolve the issues in the region?
Back to the OP.. The turkish militant IHH flotilla was sent over to prevent palestinians from being thrown into israeli concentration camp ovens.. (tongue in cheek).. and in 1988 the prior peace seeking Turkish government arrested the Iranian backed IHH group but the present turkish government defends the same group. Hope & Change for Turks?
And John, I’m still scratching my head trying to figure out what you mean by asking “don’t you guys stick together?”.. specifically what are you asking? No I do not like Rahm at all..
As for Pat Robertson, yeah sometimes he says stuff that makes me cringe but I listen to everybody to get their perspectives. Pat does a great job of gathering info from credible sources that mainstream press lacks the guts to quote or interview. In many ways I admire the guy but often disagree at the same time. That is the beauty of America, we can disagree while getting along and go hunting, fishing, boating etc. together.
In Pat’s defense, he is a much better interviewer than the pegged left journalists littering the news channels will ever be. Olberman, eat your shorts.
Hey John, in your eyes is the IDF is Jack The Ripper?
Peace through Intifada..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded
Makes one want to set doves free and see gaza rockets as the heaven sent rays of light streaming from the heavens..
John,
The information that I received concerning the Jerusalem population numbers came from a college class which I attended. To give you the exact source, I do not have one. However, I trust that the professor’s information was accurate. I could further study the issue and get the source, however, I do not need to do that to make my point.
My two contentions still stand, without having been disproven by you. The ancient rights scenario most definiately applies because the Jews have never relinquished control of the land, that is my point, there has been a consistent Jewish community in that region, even as others have come and gone. The Jews have the right to the land, just as any other nation has the right to its land, and this right pre-dates the Balfour declaration.
As the world turns the story unfolds..
http://www.thepeoplespeakradio.net/2009/berlin-mckinney-heart/
The media fails to do its job again.. Greta Berlin is a ket organizer of this flotilla per Krauthammer http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html
Cynthia McKinney would have been on the flotilla but isn’t she still in jail?
Steve, please refute this with something better than your college class source and I will be a happy to add to this proof source.
Ancient rights are bullshit and you know it. Also, the Jews aren’t a race and the Arabs living in Palestine were probably descendants who changed their religion. The Jews who were left did not own most of Palestine, the Arabs did. Are you an apologist for the Cherokee nation as well? Are you ready to give their lands in Georgia and South Carolina back to them? You can’t get out of your own way, can you?
In 1920, the League of Nations’ Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine stated that there were 700,000 people living in Palestine:
Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or—a small number—are Protestants. The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions.[196]“
James, you hate Rahm because he is in Obama’s administration and a Democrat. I dislike him because of he is an insider who is very pro Israel. I am not anti-Semitic but I think the hard liners who run the Israeli government have gone too far just like Hamas. Both Jews and Arabs are semites the last I checked (except for Ashkenazis) and I hope that the hawks don’t start any more wars that murder the innocent. But I really have no hope of this so I guess I’m wasting my breath.
Again, I have no love for Obama but don’t fear him either. He is more centrist than many believe. By the way, the left press is very critical of Obama so I don’t know where you are getting your news. Like you, I read the right but also read the left press and we can agree to disagree. Unfortunately a forum is a difficult place to discuss the complex issues we are talking about without getting a cramp from typing.
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