Old timers whine about Norfolk’s descent
By Brian Kirwin | Saturday, May 15th, 2010 | PolicyOne of the funniest things about Hampton Roads is Norfo-centrism: the belief that despite a shoddy city, a sub-par education system, high crime, and a city known more for drinking than thinking, Norfolk should be the center of the regional universe and all other must bow in homage it.
The Virginian-Pilot basks in it, excusing everything short of murder in Norfolk politics while whining about the smallest budget issue in Virginia Beach. The Beach decides to “lock box” classroom spending so it can’t be diverted to administration, and the Pilot thinks it’s a Civil War.
As if Norfolk is some educational and social mecca.
It was brought to mind when I read the latest by Tom Robotham called “Searching for a Sense of Place.” I thought it was about where he was writing after his PortFolio Magazine failed into miserable oblivion, but no! It was about wanting to screw every city in Hampton Roads and name everybody “NORFOLK.”
“The most sensible name for our region is Norfolk. It is the urban center from which this area grew. Without Norfolk’s Naval Base, airport (which, incidentally, is known the world over as Norfolk airport), and business and cultural centers, the surrounding cities and towns wouldn’t even exist and certainly couldn’t thrive.”
Funny, the airport isn’t known the world over, because it’s so freakin’ small and landlocked by those brilliant Norfolk planners, that you practically have to parachute out of a real flight to ever get here.
Liberals. For all their talk about looking out for people, all they ever want is centralized power. Read.
“the best thing this area’s leaders could do—the surest means of sparking economic and cultural vitality—would be to agree on a merger of cities and recognize Norfolk as the seat of a new government”
He complains that his dream, his struggle, his utopia won’t ever happen, because the other cities won’t bow to his dream of power. No kidding?
“The leadership of Virginia Beach continues to cling to the notion that it should have equal if not greater status.”
Hmmmmm. Now why is that? Let’s check it out.
Norfolk: 234,000 people
Virginia Beach: 434,000 people
Murder Rate per 100,000 people
Norfolk 21.1
Virginia Beach 3.7
Assaults per 100,000 people
Norfolk 381.3
Virginia Beach 98.6
Robberies per 100,000 people
Norfolk 399.3
Virginia Beach 127.3
Median income in Norfolk $31,000
Median income in Virginia Beach $49,000
Virginia Beach Public Schools – all fully accredited, and they didn’t have to cheat.
Norfolk Public Schools – 3 conditional and 2 more with warning.
Hey, Tom. Want to know why a whole lot of cities not only don’t want to be subjugated to your centralized dream of Norfopower? Because Norfolk isn’t exactly being a kind of city any neighboring city would want to emulate. In fact, Norfolk’s horrible job of managing itself created the multiple cities around it. Maybe if Norfolk was anything remotely attractive, surrounding cities would flock to it and beg to be absorbed.
Maybe that could be your next article. “Why no one wants to be like Norfolk.” It could be a multi-part series.
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The right wants to jeer him. The left wants to censor him. Moderates usually want both. Brian Kirwin is a political consultant and public relations strategist in Virginia Beach with a lightning-rod flair. Brian also serves on the VB Arts & Humanities Commission and frequently appears on Hampton Roads theatrical stages, if only to prove that all actors aren’t liberals. Kirwin’s columns stir up debate and hit the political scene with no punches pulled.
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35 Responses to "Old timers whine about Norfolk’s descent"
Norfolk makes Portsmouth look stunning. Our schools don’t cheat on the SOL’s and our City Councilmen don’t run extortion scams on Bars and businesses in the City. Where’s a better place to be on a weekend. Downtown Norfolk (bring your gun) or Downtown Portsmouth (Maybe give a homeless guy some change)? Once we get a new Mayor in Portsmouth I think you will see our little city do very well. It has lots of potential. Norfolk… not so much.
The point to be made is that Norfolk IS the business and cultural hub of the entire area. We who live in Virginia Beach (and other suburbs)should realize we are just a bedroom community, and there is nothing wrong with that. It has nothing to do with airport size, crime rate, etc.
You would (I hope) concur that Richmond, not Henrico nor Chesterfield is the same as Norfolk with respect to my point. The same is true for Greenwich with respect to NYC San Mateo v. SF, etc.
I do not. Norfolk has overpriced office space on a couple streets within walking distance of a Waterside that looks like a bomb hit it, a street of bar after bar after bar after bar, and a stadium for a minor league hockey team where you can buy front row seats 5 minutes before gametime.
Cultural hub? Drug culture. Gang culture. Ya might have a point there.
Richmond is the state capital. Norfolk is lucky it hasn’t been annexed.
And Atlantic and Pacific and Laskin also don’t have “that looks like a bomb hit it, a street of bar after bar after bar after bar”? But we do sell more wet Tees than Norfolk…
At least the Bars in Va Beach are open and Va Beach has a pro business local government. Can’t say the same for Norfolk.
Consolidation would require that a referendum question pass in each of the cities that would be included. All it would take is one locality to nix the deal.
It’s that part of Virginia law where Norfolk-centrics like Robotham miss it. It can’t be all about Norfolk; there would have to be something for everyone in a consolidation agreement for it to get the necessary legal and political muster. Yes, you can put the seat of government in current downtown Norfolk…but the operating departments should go to the Chesapeake and Virginia Beach Municipal Centers. That frees up prime downtown Norfolk real estate for private commercial redevelopment.
While we could, and should think about, consolidating the five cities of South Hampton Roads, no one should seriously be thinking about a Southside/Peninsula consolidation until the day that there are multiple light rail crossings across the harbor. (Yeah, probably a couple generations off – at least.)
In addition, any consolidation agreement should include a Residents Bill Of Rights. So individuals aren’t swallowed up in such a large city, the rights of individuals to participate in local government and petition such should be clearly enumerated.
Will any of it happen tomorrow? Not at all. The irony here is that consolidationists should be forming a political movement towards such, but aren’t. Obviously none of the current power centers in local politics are going to push a resident-friendly consolidation. As the cities become more homogenous in outlying years, the arguments against consolidation will fall with the differences.
[Henry now ducks for cover, waiting for Brian to shoot.]
Henry, in Norfolk you’d have a much higher chance of getting shot.
Well, bring the light rail to the VB oceanfront so we can level the playing field and make Virginia Beach more like Norfolk! Gee Henry, you don’t need a referendum for that!
Cultural center? The only time I have went to Norfolk so far this year was to attend the Tea Party. And I definitely carried a gun.
Brian,
I just finally read Robotham’s piece. The only thing worse that his idea that the region MUST be branded Norfolk is his antidemocratic notion that Virginia Beach should be subordinate to Norfolk. Let me point out that with 200k more people, it’s Virginia Beach that would dominate any union, not Norfolk. That’s part of why Virginia Beach shouldn’t fear consolidation: we’d be running the new show, not Norfolk.
BTW, my idea of a Residents Bill Of Rights came from you telling me about the problems of individuals trying to affect change in Philadelphia. In the 2004 CCO Resolution at the time of the Norfolk – Portsmouth consolidation talks, I put such a clause in there when drafting it.
Wally,
I agree: we don’t need a referendum to build Virginia Beach light rail.
Virginia Beach’s greenfields north of the Green Line are nearly exhausted. Our only realistic is to go to redevelopment in the SGAs. That puts us in a similiar boat to Norfolk and Portsmouth.
Once LRT comes online, it will blur city lines. When you can go from Portsmouth to Virginia Beach via Norfolk in minutes for bus fare, it will be a dramatic game changer.
Hmm—Wasn’t “Norfo-centrism” the reason Virginia has an explicit ban on regional consolidation in place since the late 1960′s? Last I remember reading, if it weren’t for Norfolk’s ham-handed attempts to bully all of the Tidewater region under its mega-high tax rates, we wouldn’t have had to do that, would we?
Regards,
Brian
Brian L,
Actually, Portsmouth’s Property Tax rate is higher than Norfolk’s. Moreover, you miss the primary cause of it: 41% of Norfolk’s real estate is tax-exempt. Portsmouth is about 50%, while Virginia Beach is only 11%. (That explains plenty.)
I’m perplexed as to why they haven’t jumped on the bandwagon of what VB’s Blue Ribbon Budget Task Force proposed: 1% local Sales and Income Taxes in exchange for a revenue-neutral Property Tax rate cut. Given that they have much more to gain from a move away from the Property Tax, you would think….
Doesn’t anyone remember Princess Anne County? We became Virginia Beach because we did NOT want to be piecemeal incorporated into Norfolk.
In 1986 my Grandmother begged me not to transfer here from ORU to complete my MA at CBN. All she could think about was how Norfolk was in the 1940′s when she was a nurse here during WW11. Norfolk is better than her stories she told me about that time in history, but it still has a long way to go.
Hey!
Bashing of the Mermaid City is getting a little thick. Not every part of the city is crime ridden. Where I’m at in Hyde Park, the PACE officer has no report, as there is little to no crime where I am. Every city has their good areas and rough areas.
Lee, that includes P Town. You could not pay me to live there! And, by the way, Portsmouth schools are making it because they have 30% taking the “alternative” test for the SOL’s. Go check it out. They are gaming it too.
I hope I didn’t offend you Pam. I worked as an outside sales rep for Pella and there are some wonderful areas of Norfolk, and some areas I hated to drive through because I knew how dangerous it was, especially at night. Not too many really dangerous areas in VB, except maybe Magic Hollow. Norfolk has gotten better over the years, but again, it still has a ways to go. It is what it is.
Pam, no one is saying every neighborhood in any city is the same. The point is none of the surrounding cities want to be subjugated by Norfolk. The arrogance that as Norfolk goes, so goes the region is not justified by any real measure of any consequence.
Cultural centers? The Harrison Opera House has 16 performances a year of the Virginia Opera. 16! What happens on the other 349 nights a year? It’s a joke!
Chrysler Hall? It’s dark from mid-July until November when the Lion King comes. What else they got? A Queen cover band? A few standup comedians?
The Symphony needed a bailout. If Norfolk wants other cities to bow in homage because of their “cultural centers,” maybe their “cultural centers” should be doing something worth admiring.
Norfolk’s best offerings aren’t “the big guys.” Virginia Stage Company packs great performances in a packed performance schedule. They’re still doing well despite the recession. The smaller theaters are doing well, too. But the funding goes to “you know who” and it isn’t based on performance in my view.
Other cities just shake their heads at that. To say we should all just be taken over by Norfolk is insane.
Brian
Not sure why you felt the need to bash Norfolk. Robotham isn’t in a position to change anything.
Besides, all the statistics in the world can’t make up for the reasons people choose – yes, choose – to live here. Having lived all over this city in the 32 years I’ve been here, I can honestly say I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else.
To say that Norfolk isn’t the cultural center is to ignore reality. Just where is the opera house in Virginia Beach? Aren’t 16 performances better than zero?
Let’s compare The Norfolk Forum speakers to those of The Virginia Beach Forum, shall we?
But I digress. Robotham speaks for himself and not the rest of Norfolk. There are things to like – and dislike – in any of the Hampton Roads cities. Let’s just leave it at that.
Vivian, when’s the last time you went to the Opera?
If the truth about Norfolk is “bashing,” I’ll take it over arrogance.
“Hampton Roads” — I’m sorry it’s always going to be “Tidewater” to me — outsiders find these arguments funny;-) That said, Norfolk is the only place in “Hampton Roads” that doesn’t look like it was thrown up in a rush on a rainy Wednesday afternoon in about 1956. It actually has some sections of town that have buildings that are of architectural interest. And, it’s an actual city. With neighborhoods. Virginia Beach is a big suburb attached to a boardwalk.
I was last at the Opera on April 2. You?
Are you kidding? Never in a zillion years.
Vivian,
Although we are poles apart politically, I have to agree with your assessment of N v. VB. I’m a “comehere” circa 1997.
BTW, Mr. K. said above that Norfolk was lucky not to have been annexed by Richmond. Now that would have been a geographical wonder.
Brian: Okay, Opera’s not your thing…but Norfolk has a better venue for the WWE too!
Except WWE would rather go to Hampton.
John, I said “Richmond is the state capital. Norfolk is lucky it hasn’t been annexed.”
Those were two separate comments, and perhaps should’ve been in different paragraphs. While I think Norfolk is lucky it hasn’t been annexed, I wasn’t connecting that thought to Richmond. The Richmond remark was in response to someone else’s comparison to Richmond.
Thanks, Brian. I can put my VDOT map away now.
Having never lived in Richmond, I can’t really compare, but I do prefer the ‘idea’ of Richmond to Norfolk. Richmond appears to have embraced its history far better then Norfolk. Norfolk has some architectural and historical pieces, but pales in comparison to Richmond. Every time I’m in Richmond or driving through I enjoy the old warehouses, plants, row houses and buildings. Shame Norfolk tore them all down.
I’d rather live in a city with a future than one with a past.
BK: They aren’t mutually exclusive, you know.
DJ: I’m a Richmond native and resident and I agree with you. But if I had to live in Tidewater, it would certainly be in Norfolk.
Steve, they may not be mutually exclusive, but in the case of Virginia Beach and Norfolk, they are adjacent.
Brian,
The problem with your comment from 5/17 10:58 P.M. is that it simply looks at Virginia Beach today vs. Norfolk today. VB certainly would have a brighter future going it alone than Norfolk going it alone.
However, could Virginia Beach have an even brighter future after consolidation? Maybe, as the devil would be in the details of the consolidation agreement. That’s why consolidation shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. If Norfolk and the other three Southside cities want to talk, we should join them at the table. Having the strongest position at the table, we can leverage it for a deal that could give us a brighter future than going it alone.
As in poker, it’s how well you play the cards you’re holding.
Richmond / Henrico / Chesterfield analogy doesn’t work for the simple reason that while in Richmond the legal, banking, business center is downtown, that is not how it is structured in South Hampton Roads.
Norfolk has a Fortune 500 Company (Norfolk Southern), Virginia Beach has a Fortune 500 Company (Amerigroup).
Norfolk has some law firms, but Virginia Beach (particularly around the Town Center) has just as many.
Norfolk has 1/2 the population, Virginia Beach Doubled.
When someone from Henrico or Chesterfield travel and someone asks them where they are from, they say “Richmond”.
When someone from Virginia Beach travels and someone asks them where they are from, they say “Virginia Beach.”
There are huge differences between the two cities, but if anything Virginia Beach should dominate. After all, its the largest city in the state!
Gee … aren’t we supposed to “celebrate diversity”? Today we have 16 separate local governments and individual towns, each with different cultures and their own histories. Liberals! Make up your minds, will you? Where is the “diversity” in trying to all of Tidewater into “Norfolk”?
Or … is this desire to transform our area into Norfolk really about desperate efforts to bail out a failed urban model that is unsustainable. Is this a strategy predicated upon the philosophy of a Socialistic “redistribute the wealth” to hand over tax dollars to Norfolk to save the city from its bad decisions and its failure to offer a place attractive to the 435,000 people that choose to live in Virginia Beach instead? Not to mention the over 1.5 million people that choose to live somewhere other than Norfolk in the 16 localities that the local “regionalists” like to call “Hampton Roads”. While Vivian and others chose to live in Norfolk, many more in our area did not.
Norfolk and Portsmouth have non-elected Housing and Development Authorities. The majority of citizens choosing to live in Virginia Beach don’t want that type of unaccountable power surrendered to yet another taxpayer funded government bureaucracy. We have said so at the ballot box many times. Norfolk decided to “invest” in wasteful light rail and has discovered that the salesman selling light rail are less than trustworthy when it comes to cost estimates. Virginia Beach voters were clear that they do not want to fund such a train wreck in our city. Now we have a push to force the citizens that chose to live in Virginia Beach to pay for Norfolk’s mistake? No, I don’t agree with that
Let me get out the shovel and start dealing with what Reid left behind.
First, he and his fellow VBTAers want Virginia Beach and Chesapeake to from a seperate MSA. Effectively, secede from the region. Yet Reid wants us to think he actually cares about our neighbors.
Second, for all the anti-Regionalism of the VBTA, it’s Chair works in Norfolk while it’s Vice Chair has his primary office in Portsmouth.
Third, the Vice Chair of the all-White VBTA quoting “celebrate diversity” is comical in such a sick way.
Having taken on his hypocrisy, let me point out where he’s wrong on consolidation law:
1. Any areas we want to be R&HA-exempt in a consolidation can be kept that way in the agreement.
2. Currently Virginia law already provides for tax differentials for up to 5 years after consolidation. We can always ask the General Assembly for more to help facilitate an agreement.
Finally, if Reid thinks Norfolk is somehow unsustainable, he should look again at Virginia Beach. With our greenfields north of the Green Line nearly exhausted, we’re going to hit a wall unless light rail is built.
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