Fees aren’t taxes
By Brian Kirwin | Monday, March 8th, 2010 | PolicyI haven’t started a good messy fight in a while, so I thought why not now?
I’m getting emails so often about the state budget, trying to make it seem like Armageddon if someone has to pay an extra court cost or a few dimes more for a fifth of Jack Daniels.
Sorry, that’s not the same as raising taxes in the minds of the public.
I don’t favor going fee crazy either. That’s the nuttiness that creates abuser fees for speeding tickets. But the bottom line is this: Most people see fees and taxes as different things. It’s the truth, and it’s backed up by every poll I’ve ever seen.
If government’s getting the money is all that is required for something to be called a tax, then the lottery is a tax, and when a scratch ticket price goes up another buck, Americans for Prosperity can attack legislators for the massive tax increase.
And everyone will laugh at them.
Take transportation. Every poll will say tolls are more preferable than taxes when building a new road. Why? Most people won’t have to pay a toll. Don’t drive the road (and most won’t), don’t pay for it.
Studies show that 2/3rds of the voters in Hampton Roads don’t regularly travel between the Southside and the Peninsula. So, building a Third Crossing with a tax increase fails with about a 2/3rds no vote. Surprised? Build it with tolls? Giant levels of support.
It’s why cigarette taxes are met with very little voter opposition. 70% of people don’t smoke. Red light cameras are supported by vast majorities, because most people don’t run red lights.
So, when the General Assembly says no to increased income taxes, and no to increased sales taxes, and rightly so, an email from Americans from Prosperity talking about the economy-collapsing effects of an 18-cent phone fee, I start to roll my eyes and wish they read “The Boy Who Cried Wolf” when they were younger.
I know we’re against taxes and all, but are we to believe that Virginians would be driven to economic ruin over paying another $2.16 a year in a phone bill? I’m against drowning, but that doesn’t mean I won’t take a shower.
The hyperbole is on both sides. Rolling back government spending to 2006 levels isn’t exactly throwing teachers out on the streets either, so the teachers’ unions can save their email blasts, too.
In fact, I invite any teacher who is unhappy with the prospects of teaching in Virginia to warm up that resume and test the job market out in the private sector. I’m sure you’ll find it lovely.
Bottom line – It’s a very tough economy, and 100 Delegates, 40 Senators, and a very good Governor are trying to hold things together while putting some things in place to get the economy moving again. If a few fees are part of getting us to that point, I’ll be the first one calling for their repeal when the economy improves, but I’m not going to scream about a 99% victory as if it was a 1% defeat.
And I’m not going to lessen the effectiveness of real critiques by crying wolf constantly. We’ve already won a major victory, in that a very partisan Democrat Senate crossed off income taxes and sales taxes despite many efforts by Senators to increase them.
We’ll soon see if the House and Senate can agree on a state budget. I hope they can. I also hope that those who benefit from complaining the loudest on both sides can chill a bit. We only get a budget if both sides agree. No one’s getting everything they want.
Let’s let the McDonnell and Bolling work at turning the state economy around, which is the reason they were elected. Success in that will lead to fixing any budget imperfections in the next session.
Now….fire away!
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About the author
The right wants to jeer him. The left wants to censor him. Moderates usually want both. Brian Kirwin is a political consultant and public relations strategist in Virginia Beach with a lightning-rod flair. Brian also serves on the VB Arts & Humanities Commission and frequently appears on Hampton Roads theatrical stages, if only to prove that all actors aren’t liberals. Kirwin’s columns stir up debate and hit the political scene with no punches pulled.
Comments
67 Responses to "Fees aren’t taxes"
Except when it is a tax, as defined by the code of Virginia. And are you looking at what this pays for – or just advocating increasing taxes for anything? This isn’t being increased to pay for anything related to 911 services or phone lines what so ever. It’s going to pay benefits to game warders and ABC agents.
It’s also on every home and cell phone. For a family of four, or a small business with 20 phone lines and cell phones, those add up. Especially for call centers in Southwest Virginia with hundreds of lines.
This isn’t a fee on a bottle of liquor that only affects those who consume it. Everyone has at least one phone line – so this hits every Virginian, not just those who choose to consume as your references sin taxes.
Yeah, that 18 cents is gonna crush me.
I’m not advocating anything, except maybe some perspective to the overboard rhetoric of email blasts … and commenters.
I guess we sure want to preserve those call centers, huh?
Brian, the code of virginia defines the e911 tax as…a tax.
Congratulations, Ben. You can read.
I talked about what voters think…a good thing to know if they’re the ones you’re communicating with.
the problem is “fees” are not always actually fees. Fees are designed to cover the cost of some given government service. A drivers license fee is supposed to cover the cost of issuance and perhaps enforcement. If a “fee” exceeds the cost of whatever it is supposedly for, then it is just a tax. So yes i agree there is a difference between a fee and a tax, but when politicians start talking about raising fees, it is almost guaranteed that they are really talking about raising taxes.
Semantically, in the governmental world they are technically different. Fees provide revenue diversity and misdirect the true cost of government. It provides an unsuspecting individual to say, ” Another 11 cents isn’t going to kill me”, so long as it isn’t your last 11 cents.
On the other hand, economically, fees and taxes are virtually the same. Fees also raise the cost of doing business which is passed off to the consumer, reduce disposable income, but more importantly they like taxes slow monetary velocity. A true subscriber to Ronald Reagan’s economic treatise would never confuse the two as not being one in the same.
Seriously Brian? You’re going to determine if a tax is good or bad based on the actual dollar amount? Where is the principle in that?
Let’s look at this another way. I’m looking to raise a crap-ton of money for my ever expanding and more expensive than I promised government solution. If I spread the cost amongst utility customers, I can recognize tremendous revenue and they will never know. As years pass and I want more, I can increase if 400% and the customer won’t gripe while a smirk and chuckle at the wicked money I fleeced from the taxpayers at the aggregate. Kudos to me for getting my virtually impossible to eradicate tax on the books. Yes, it won’t break the bank for anyone person, but moving tens of millions of dollars from the economy are tens of millions that would have been spent at the discretion of the taxpayer, not the government.
Seriously fake name? It doesn’t matter to you if you are taxed a penny or taxed $40,000?
We do want to preserve those call centers when they equal jobs to many Virginians. This might only add up to $50 per year for a family of four, but that’s a tank of gas or two. To a lot of folks, that’s real money in their household budget.
Brian,
I agree with you in principle (difference between a tax and a fee), but I disagree with you on e-911 tax for many of the reasons stated above.
Throw that sarcasm my way and see what I do with it or are you up for a reasonable discussion?
Reasonable discussion? we can continue the sparring in hopes of coming to some sort of compromise. Sarcastic quips? I’m too busy for that.
Jim, I didn’t say i agreed with the 911 fee/tax/grant/loan/subsidy whatever. My point is that everyday voters don’t see a fee the same way they see a tax, and it’s backed up by poll after poll after poll.
Also, the hyperbole about 18 cents is a bit much even for me, and I’m the King of Hyperbole.
I’ll take the commenters’ advice and call AFP’s crusade the “Save Call Centers” action alert.
I’m not sure I understand the arguement that because the 911 fee/tax affects everyone that makes it bad. The bad economy effects everyone. Cuts in school funding affect everyone. Our political leaders can’t call for everyone to make some sacrifice to get us out of this mess? Are we really that short-sighted and selfish now?
IT’S NOT GOING TO CALL CENTERS! IT’S NOT GOING TO CALL CENTERS!IT’S NOT GOING TO CALL CENTERS!IT’S NOT GOING TO CALL CENTERS!
It’s a LIE! (Whew! Sorry for the rant…)
Kirwin: You should be more concerned about the truth than you are about semantics. The gov wants to use wireline and cellphone bills as a way to deceive taxpayers into thinking that they are getting an improvement in the E-911 call centers by paying a little fee – when in actuality it is the cowards way of trying to scam $18.6 million dollars (FY2011) from unsuspecting Virginians.
This fee/tax/whatever will be redirected to fund death and survivor health benefits for Line of Duty employees, including those in The Department of Conservation and Recreation, the VA Marine Resource Management, and the VA Alcohol and Beverage Control Board. (That’s not the E-911 centers dude!)
So why don’t you focus on the shell game that is being perpetrated here, rather than trying to justify “18 cents won’t crush me.”
BTW – I’ve never purchased a lottery ticket in my life – because I have the choice!
Dude?
Let’s take Brian’s comment to its logical conclusion; that is, increase the fees associated with the use of highways and our transportation funding crisis goes away. No one can argue that the gas tax of $0.175 is not a fee for use of the transportation system, nor can they argue that the sales fee on automotive products that goes to the trust fund is the same thing. Certainly, the fee on automobile insurance, the titling fee, the fee on rental cars are in the same category. So I for one applaud BK’s acknowledgment that the “taxes” on transportation items are really user fees. Of course, many of us have said this for a decade or more, but hey, it is good to see BK finally come around. Thanks Brian.
Just as soon as you pass that Constitutional Amendment to protect the trust fund, Mike.
Some of you have missed Brian’s point. He was talking about was is preceived as a fee vs. a tax by the public. I personally favor raising the gas tax to pay for roads, but it’s seen by the public as a tax, not a fee. Toll, a much less efficient way to fund roads, are seen as a fee by the public.
I see, so government policy should be decided by public opinion polls, not actually fact and knowledge. So Brian’s former condemnation of the report by the Virginia chapter of the American Society of Civil Engineers, which gave our bridges and tunnels a D-, was dismissed because they had a conflict of interest. Better to have actors posing as civil engineers to spout the points from the republican play book. Now that is policy we can really agree with!
BK sez, “Take transportation. Every poll will say tolls are more preferable than taxes when building a new road. Why? Most people won’t have to pay a toll. Don’t drive the road (and most won’t), don’t pay for it.”
That generalization makes the assumption that the public discounts the fact the transportation costs are not included in the cost of goods and services. As is an increase in the cost of gasoline whether or not you drive a gas guzzler or an electric car. Raise a fee or a tax, somehow everyone pays. BK, where do you come up with these asinine assumptions on how the general public views finances and economics? Some of us got passed the eight grade.
MB-Rather we like it or not, and I guess each side has reasons at times not to like it, this is a democratic republic. Government policy is, and always has been, constrained by what the voters will put up with. I’m not sure we’ve ever had leaders who were so unconcerned with their own continuance in office that they’d totally ignore the will of the voters to do what they thought was right. That said, I think you and I would agree that too many of our political “leaders” these days just put their fingers in the wind. I think it’s part of a leaders job in a democracy not only to give people what they want but to educate them to want the right things.
Yes, but I would modify your desire in Virginia to hope that they would simply stop with their objective of creating and disseminating disinformation and obfuscation. For me, to think they would act in the public interest is just too much of a stretch given their past performance and inclination.
Wally, congratulations for getting passed Eighth Grade.
Steve. Really? Raising the gas tax? That’s the first one they raid. I assume your in the north near richmond. You know the area where the idiots in VDOT forgot their materials class 101 and patch cement roads with asphalt…The state has been looting the transportation fund and squandering it on new vehicles (ever noticed how shiny those VDOT trucks are) instead of using the money for the roads. The roads started to get really bad when the Democrats took over. Will it change under Republicans? I hope so. I hope that they can be honest and not waste the money but instead spend it wisely. However, with McDonnell endorsing that hack John McCain I’m not so sure.
Brian,
Actually, most eighth graders are brighter than the gang Wally hangs with.
On transportation funding, I don’t think it’s a “taxes or fees” question. We’re so far in the hole that both the Gas Tax and tolls need to be on the table. One alone it’s going to raise enough revenue to cover the gap.
For example, you can plan a road project based on tolls later covering the bonds. The hitch is that you have to start paying for construction costs prior to collecting the first tolls.
I actually think the reason that McDonnell has postponed further discussion of this issue, and intimated that there will not be a special session unless agreement on a solution occurs first, is that he and the Delegates are so absolutely embarrassed at the state of our roads and bridges that now it is more to their advantage to simply ignore the problem that to confront it. To confront it means proposing new funding, and they would rather stay in office than actually improve the condition of our transportation system.
As roads get worse, more people will buy 4 wheel drive SUV and pickup gas guzzlers to navigate the ravines and crevasses opening up on the highways which are beginning to look like the aftermath of the Haiti and Chile earthquakes.
Good for car dealers, good for gas tax revenue and good for the front end alignment and car repair business.
Ben Marchi and AFP are total LOSERS!!! These guys pay their salaries by sending our direct mail fundraising appeals to “fight the dirty General Assembly members who want to raise your taxes.” Just one problem, there is no effort underway to raise your taxes in ANY meaningful way. So, Ben Marchi and his LOSER associates have to try to create a bonfire out of nothing to get people to send in their checks so Ben can get paid.
Follow the money – It’s totally disgusting. No one…I mean no one in Richmond takes Ben Marchi or AFP seriously as an organization. They can’t be called a think tank because no one who works for AFP is capable of thinking critically about the state’s problems.
Eventually they will go too far and lose any credibility. It’s happened to other right wing crack pot organizations in VA and it will happen to AFP soon enough.
I look forward to the day when Bob McDonnell and the GA give Marchi nothing to cry wolf about and he ends up doing what he may be good at – pumping gas in Earlysville for six bucks an hour.
I personally don’t care what it’s called. We need to clean up this mess we call a transportation system here in Hampton Roads. That’s going to take money. Until we do, we will not attract the businesses we need to balance the jobs we are going to lose if our carrier moves to Florida. Bottom line.
Yes, even a die hard Republican can say that.
Yes. Exactly.
“It’s happened to other right wing crack pot organizations in VA and it will happen to AFP soon enough.” – Ron Mexico
Just to clarify Ron, are there also “Left wing crack pot organizations”? Are there “LOSERS” out there that get paid to convince us that paying taxes and growing government is a good thing?
That said, Ron, there probably are those out there that do as you allege. Just as there are people out there that connect themselves to the Tea Party or any kind of movement in order to profit even while not being on the same page politically or philisophically.
I just like to gage a person by the language they use. Your “right wing crack pot” line raised an eyebrow.
Is it possible that by raising taxes, fees, or tolls that we are just further enabling a broken system that uses a shell game to steal from transportation funds to pay for something else? What will this new fee accomplish if we never address the root causes of this lack of dedicated and “crisis” funding? Btw, do we have a crisis?
Wally is correct in stating that adding a buck or so to your phone bill just allows the government to hide your overall tax bill. It offers shadow as citizens increasingly prefer transparency and honest governance. Perhaps death from a zillion paper cuts isn’t as straight forward as one bullet in the heart, but the end result is still the same.
Brian K.’s point about the “Transportation lock box”, just further highlights the idea that we must keep an ever vigilant eye on how our representatives behave with their powers to tax and spend.
I favor tolls for new construction. In the case of expanding the state owned port, and then nearby road infrastructure, I support the state and not just Hampton Roads fitting the bill. Because fat chance of Hampton Roads getting most of the benefits of revenue expansion! It will just be added to the shell game and the other areas of Virginia will wink at each other and promise us a “reach around”, like they always do. Kinda like HB 3202 when they would pretend that state funding wouldn’t drop as our regional self-mutilation started to pay for everything.
There is little difference between taxes, fees, and tolls. There is only degrees of transparency and legal tax avoidance. And even tax avoidance is sometimes temporary as those that do pay it, pass their costs on to their customers.
Brian: I hate to admit it but I agree with you. A fee is not a tax.
I support users fees. Fees give people have the option to pay or not. If you do not want to pay a 911 fee, then don’t have a phone. Your choice plan and simple. That is what America is all about-Free Choice. You choose to use and you choose to pay.
AND for the .18 cent fee, I agree it comes down to a BS position by the AFP that tries to hide the fact “they do not want to pay.” Frankly nobody wants to pay and that is what got us into this mess.
AND those line of duty deaths- I’m sure those guys didn’t want to die protecting your dumb a**es either but they did what they had to do. .18 cents is BS…. We all owe those men and women a debt of gratitude and bitching and 18 cents is an insult to their life, death and public service.
Cambell County,
Don’t fear…the tards in Norfolk are patching the 1950′s era concrete streets with asphalt where I am in Norfolk too.
I have addressed this when I see it, and sometimes we get real cement patch done right, but it’s an exception to the rule.
I have argued that we have been ripped off of the water main upgrades because they don’t want to dig up our concrete streets.
In addendum to the above:
This is another reason why I believe the Govt, local state or Federal does not merit another single red cent from my hard earned money–of which they are getting 50%. (all sources)
They have not proven to me that it is spent properly, or efficiently, or accomplishing the core functions of Govt.
WJ- No family of four will pay $50 a year under this proposal. Let’s assume they have 8 hard wire phone lines and 8 mobile phones–ridiculous, but let’s assume–that’s still only $34.56 per year.
That call center with 1,000 lines would pay $2,160 per year. If they have employees using that many lines day and night, their vending machines net more than that daily.
Thank you, Ben Marchi, for handing your opponents a devastating blow to Americans for Prosperity’s credibility. You deceived your participants and donors, calling this “a shell game to hide what’s really a huge tax hike,” neglecting to mention it’s only 18 cents a month per phone. You say it funds “an array of benefits for a wide variety of state and local government employees,” but the truth is all the money goes to the Line of Duty Fund for families of public safety officers injured or killed on the job, the very people who respond to 911 calls.
- Steve Lebowitz, Annapolis, Maryland
William Bailey & Steve Lebowitz, I was speaking to the general topic before, but let me comment on the specific tax…*cough*….fee that you mention. Even though I would support a dedicated funding for line of duty deaths and agree with your statement that they deserve more, the same logic applies to this “fee” as well.
If it is a line of duty death benefit tax, why not bill it as such? Last time I checked, voters generally like law enforcement and firemen. Why bill it as some e911 thing? Additionally, my support for paying more for benefits for Recreation, ABC, and even game wardens, is far lower than firemen and police. Nothing against those people, but while you call .18 insulting, if they are lumped in with those other groups, I would find THAT insulting. There is no comparison if you ask me. Again, nothing against Recreation, ABC, and Game Wardens, but it just ain’t the same and you’re not on the same playing field. We hear multiple stories from multiple sources. Wouldn’t transparency of name help prevent any misunderstanding of who is telling us the true contents of the legislation?
If the tax was clear, concise, and marketed a tiny bit, I bet it would be one tax that would enjoy support. So, again, why the murky nature of this thing?
911 user fees? There’s that bs you speak of William. Think about it. You are served by police/fire whether you use a phone or not. Therefore, it isn’t a true user fee. You benefit indirectly everyday, even if you are never a victim. That fire never spread from your neighbor’s house to yours. That thug didn’t mug you since he got busted yesterday. The idea of user fees for public safety just seems odd.
The transparency issue is nothing more than a “smoke screen” used to cover the AFP’s objection to paying this user fee. Frankly if it wasn’t the transparency excuse it would just be something else…
And yes everyone loves the police and fire employees and protections provided the citizens, UNTIL they are asked to pay a lousy .18 cents and support them. I see it everyday… Sometimes you just have to wonder why people put thier lives on the line to help citizens they have never met before and will never see again.
Britt Howard –
All state and local government personnel covered by the Line of Duty fund are first responders who are called upon in the line of duty to put themselves in harm’s way to protect and rescue others.
They all respond to 911 calls, so the 18 cents E-911 tax is an appopriate and convenient way to replenish the Line of Duty fund.
We all know that police, firefighters, and paramedics respond to 911 calls, but so do game and forest wardens, hazmat teams, and yes, ABC special agents when on assignment as specified in the law. The Line of Duty fund also covers the least appreciated law enforcement officers with one of the most important and dangerous protective missions, corrections officers. National Guardsmen are also covered for casualties sustained in emergency situations. Here’s the statute:
http://law.justia.com/virginia/codes/toc0901000/9.1-400.html
- Steve Lebowitz, Annapolis, Maryland
William, transparency IS an issue. You wouldn’t have the cynicise and the mistruwt if it wasn’t. The addition of all those other “first responders” still aren’t on the same level as police and fire to me, but at leist its only 18 cents. If you only include police and fire, I’d consider payang a different pax and pay more
Good so we’re all agreed – AFP is a desperate organization with no credibility who lies to Virginians, creates fake scandals, then uses these fake scandals to raise money to pay the salaries of their pathetic staff. Okay, Brian, taxes v. fees is an easy one…How about another non-controversial like…Should Pete Rose be in the Hall of Fame?
Which one? MLB or WWE?
My answer to both is yes.
Damn, I’m agreeing with BK again!
Just to be arbitrary, I can make a case that Rose DOESN’T belong in the WWE Hall of Fame.
Are you kidding? Those spots with Kane were total markout moments.
But there were only two! And I don’t think he bled either time. I think you have to have at least one “crimson mask” to get into the WWE Hall of Fame. Hell, Jim Ross is in as an announcer, and even he bled.
[...] Kirwin of Bearing Drift recently wrote a blog post entitled, “Fees aren’t taxes.” The post took an aggressive stance on taxes but I don’t want to talk about topic but rather [...]
3 actually
Okay, I’ll bow to your WWE geekiness. But did he bleed the third time?
No, but he took Kane’s chokeslam and Rikishi’s stinkface.
God, i AM a geek!
Please shoot me… I agree with Brian that Pete Rose should be in the MLB Hall of Fame.
Yeah, you’re a worse mark than I am and that’s going some. Okay, if he took a stinkface he can be in the WWE Hall of Fame. That’s worse than bleeding.
Britt Howard – If someone I cared about was stranded in Virginia’s Appalachian wilderness in a blizzard, the game & field wardens risking their lives to search for him would be as deserving of Line of Duty benefits as any police officer or firefighter.
All the people covered by the Line of Duty benefit fund are first responders who risk their lives answering 911 calls to protect or rescue others. Adding 18 cents per month to th E-911 tax on every Virginia phone bill is an appropriate and efficient way to pay for their families’ benefits if they’re disabled or killed in the line of duty.
Here’s a question: Did the Virginia Telecommunications Industry Association, which issued a statement in opposition to this fee, pay (or should I say “donate” to) Americans for Prosperity to gin up a grassroots attack?
Will Ben Marchi answer that question?
- Steve Lebowitz, Annapolis, Maryland
This evening, I’ve heard the Senate has offered to drop it to a 10 cent fee.
Sure that’s a big deal being rescued like that, but how often does that happen? How often are they exposed to that risk. As compared to police and fire? ABC agents rank with police/fire? Really? *rolling my eyes*
High speed chases, gun fire exchanges, having something smashed over your head by the battered wife protecting her abusive husband from arresting officers, fire, falling/burning beams, backdraft, rescuing burn victims? Does it even compare? How about the guys in police/fire/rescue squads that are the first to search that rolled crumpled mini-van to see if any of the children are still alive? I’d be a basket case. Personally, I’d rather take my chances trying to rescue lost skiers.
The fact that this bill does include ABC, Game Wardens etc. just lends credibility to the transparency arguement and the AFP. Sounds like a government or union thing, which stinks. William how will your brothers feel if they found out they could get a lot more if they weren’t lumped in with ABC? They already get lied to and hear false promises. Why don’t they get an out in the open funding for just their benefit? Virginia Beach would just rather build trains, build multi-million SPCA facilities, and develop pedestrian friendly zones. Now the state is gonna lump them in with people, though good public servants, not in the same realm as Fire/Law Enforcement? That’s every bit as insulting as the murkiness of the bill and adding a completely new tax.
William, its the principle and the idea of addressing root causes of government waste. Not the difference between 10-18 cents. Give us a real bill for public safety. I’ll support it. Even if the AFP doesn’t.
“Here’s a question: Did the Virginia Telecommunications Industry Association, which issued a statement in opposition to this fee, pay (or should I say “donate” to) Americans for Prosperity to gin up a grassroots attack?” – Steve Lebowitz
Steve, you’re raising the price of their product and reducing the abilty of the customer to pay for it. I don’t know if they reacted or not. I would have if I were them. This isn’t the first time they’ve been targeted. Especially here in VB.
As for starting up a “grass roots” attack. In the current economic/political climate, incentive or the AFP isn’t even needed to get people to vocally oppose new taxes that lack transparency and group expenditures that that shouldn’t be grouped.
Britt: The funding isn’t to fund somebody who might face the risk once in a career. It only provides funds to the families of those killed. Most of us will never face death in the line of duty but this bill funds those who have given everything they have. If a Game Warden dies protecting one citizen in Virginia, I think he deserves this benefit.
I don’t value one person or job over an other. Male, female, black, white, firefighter or cop, it matters not if you get killed in the line of duty protecting the citizens of Virginia.
Pleased to read Lt. Governor Bolling weigh in on the topic of fees. The criteria he espoused made it quite clear that existing revenue for the transportation trust fund have a direct relationship to the service provided. That of course opens the door to increases in the gas tax, the sales tax on items with a nexus to transportation, registration fees, rental car taxes, and the tax on motor vehicle insurance. I take this as a hopeful sign that the House will realize that its policy of destruction of our transportation infrastructure through neglect has to change.
William, I’m not sure why you brought race or sex into it, I don’t value one life over another. As a Libertarian, I believe that it is self-evident that we are all equal under just law and God. However, I do value some occupations over others. I do discriminate as to where tax dollars should be spent.
A good deal of us could face potential death. Heavy equipment accidents, machinery automation accidents, a teacher could be killed at school by a student, the driver’s ed guy could be killed in a wreck, a hospital worker could die of a communicable disease, a HRT bus could be smashed by a light rail train. Where do you draw the line?
If you draw the line……anywhere, you have by definition discriminated and attributed value.
If a delivery driver dies, I feel horribly for him and his family. Does that mean I should be obligated to fund his death benefits?
What? A pizza driver doesn’t save lives? Sounds like you just discriminated. How about that ABC guy/gal?
Certain professions put the employee in frequent danger in protecting others. War time soldiers, Seals, police, fire, etc. fit that category. I feel our government OWES those guys. The desk clerk,…….not so much.
I’m not the only one that values some professions over others. The voters do too. The firemen collecting for Muscular Distrophy would not bring in as much were they not obviously firemen. Some donors, ironicly, don’t pay attention and think they’re donating to something for firemen. I’ve heard as much from people.
In this legislation, once again, police and fire are being used to further somebody else’s design. Kinda like VB council does.
How is morale affected if you can’t afford to live in the city you protect? Get lied to about pay compression fixes? Told you’re equal to ABC? Told you’re equal to corrections. Told there will be pay parity because you’re equal. What if you are in corrections and you’re told that and you are told you’ll get pay parity with police during an election year for sheriff? How is that going for you, by the way? Think you weren’t lied to?
Public Safety deserves special treatment. And by that, I don’t mean being used like poker chips to continually hold homeowners hostage at the expense of safety of our police & fire.
So, yes, I value police and fire professions above ABC and even game wardens. I don’t apologize for that. Of all people, William, I would think YOU would understand.
Britt howard – The family of an ABC officer would qualify only if the officer is injured or killed in the line of duty, just like any other uniformed public safety officer. See the statute:
http://law.justia.com/virginia/codes/toc0901000/9.1-400.html
I disagree with you about the impact an 18 cents monthly fee will have on the telecommunications industry. I don’t believe a single telecom will lose a single customer over 18 cents a month. Two dollars and sixteen cents a year.
Too bad this discussion has turned away from Americans for Prosperity’s deceit. AFP’s radio ads, direct mail, and website bloviate about a “24 percent tax hike,” never revealing that it’s only 18 cents per phone line per month. They call 18 cents “a huge tax hike.” Two dollars and sixteen cents a year is not a huge tax hike.
Even worse, AFP distorts the purpose of the tax, never mentioning the Line of Duty fund benefitting only uniformed first responders injured or killed in the course of protecting or rescuing others. Instead, AFP claims the tax will fund “an array of benefits for a wide variety of state and local government employees.” [NOT TRUE: Read the statute linked above to see for yourself.]
Notice how Ben Marchi has disappeared from this thread. Does he have the guts to defend AFP, to refute my contention that their campaign is deceptive? And will he answer my earlier question: Did telecoms “donate” to AFP to fund the attack against this tax? It sure looks like AFP is exploiting their followers’ good will, ginning them up about what they call a “24 percent tax hike” to fund “an array of benefits for a wide variety of state and local government employees,” never revealing it’s only 18 cents a month for uniformed public safety officer injured or killed on the job.
Speak up, Ben Marchi, or your silence will speak for you.
- Steve Lebowitz, Annapolis, Maryland
I posted a challenge to AFP policy director (and fellow Mets fan) Phil Kerpen on twitter:
“Will you square off with me at bearingdrift.com on the Virginia E-911 tax increase @kerpen ? http://ow.ly/1gTGo ”
Stay tuned.
- Steve Lebowitz, Annapolis, Maryland
Marchi is a pathetic coward.
Not sure why people are missing the point. It doesn’t matter whether 18 cents is a lot or a little. It matters whether it is honest to claim it is in some way related to e911 and it is not. The 911 fee/tax (fee for wireless, tax for wireline) is to fund answering and locating emergency callers to 911 and the current 75 cents fully covers that cost. The 18 cents is supposedly to cover Line of Duty costs associated with death benefits and medical costs for covered persons. If you want to be honest, just create a new FEE called the Line of Duty FEE and set the money aside accordingly. Problem is that the current costs for these benefits are already covered out of general funds in the current budget to the tune of about $9 million per year in the House budget. The 18 cents raises about $19 million year. So the two are not even related. The new fee is an effort by the senate to increase general fund revenues by $38 million over the two years and we really don’t know what it will pay for. Brian and Steve can misdirect till the cows come home, but the fact is that this fee/tax is not about 911 and it is not about LOD. It is about increasing general funds to cover general fund expenses. If it were about LOD, call it that and create the new fee accordingly. If it is about new general funds, raise taxes accordingly. Under no circumstances is it OK to call it 911 and simply lie to Virginia tax payers. Both Brian and Steve owe Virginians an apology. Especially Brian since he is one of us.
Rob: Nobody seems to be missing the point in my view. It is clear as can be that you and AFP are just offering more “Smoke & Mirror” excuses to object to the .18 cents. I don’t care what you claim to want to call it, you would still object to the fee… Duh… I get it.
And for the record, I have four phones and I don’t mind paying the .72 cent fee…
Rob – You say,
“The new fee is an effort by the senate to increase general fund revenues by $38 million over the two years and we really don’t know what it will pay for.”
but the Senate’s provision makes clear that the revenue does not go to the general fund; it goes directly and exclusively to the Line of Duty fund:
Benefits paid under the Line of Duty Act shall be funded by the $0.18
surcharge, which shall be billed, collected and remitted in the same manner as the E-911 fee and shall be deposited by the
Virginia Information Technologies Agency and the Department of Taxation, as applicable, directly to the Line of Duty Death
and Health Benefits Trust Fund of the state treasury and on the books of the State Comptroller.
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?101+bud+13-6.02+pdf
From my reading of the provision, there may be a separate breakout on phone bills saying, “LINE OF DUTY FEE…. $0.18.”
Whether there is a separate breakout or not, there is a direct link from the fee to the recipient: When you call 911, a uniformed public safety officer responds, without regard to his safety, to rescue or protect others. This fee replenishes the Line of Duty fund that pays disability or death benefits to families of 911 responders injured or killed in the line of duty. Rarely is a tax or fee more directly linked to the service it funds than this, and rarely are the beneficiaries as worthy.
I’ve shown how Americans for Prosperity has concealed the facts, refused to disclose contributors that might have a vested interest in their opposition, and distorted the truth. Shame on Americans for Prosperity.
- Steve Lebowitz, Annapolis, Maryland
Steve,
Thanks for the enlightenment. I am not a member of AFP and I don’t object to the new fee/tax so long as citizens acutally know what it is for and legislators vote on it accordingly. I believe this has been tried for the past several years and defeated each year. It was tried this year and again defeated (six different bills I believe). Now it is the budget process being used and that prevents public debate. Seems like the wrong way to do it if it is a good idea.
As I now understand this, it is creating a new “trust fund” with approximately twice as much money in it as the actual costs in the House budget to be paid out in benefits. I also believe that these benefits are paid out of the general fund (maybe by law). So I still don’t get why we are creating a savings plan with more money than is needed to cover costs at a time when there are painful cuts being made to other programs. That is why I believe the money will get used somewhere else. Not sure what would be worse, increasing taxes/fees to put in a savings plan when others are being cut, or calling it one thing when it is really another. But I don’t care so long as the public is informed.
While we are at it, I also don’t understand why death benefits wouldn’t be more cost effectively handled by a group life insurance plan (with a rider multiplying the value for dying on the job)and medical benefits by group health and workers comp. We ought to be able to get a heck of a lot of coverage for $9 million per year as currently budgeted.
I don’t think the issue is what they call this new fee/tax on the phone bill. I think the issue is what do they call it in the legislative bill and during the debate. If you can pass it by calling it what it is and by telling the truth during the public debate about what it will fund, so be it.
Rob -
You & I have found common ground:
“I don’t think the issue is what they call this new fee/tax on the phone bill. I think the issue is what do they call it in the legislative bill and during the debate. If you can pass it by calling it what it is and by telling the truth during the public debate about what it will fund, so be it.”
I agree. I think Gov. Kaine proposed this in a transparent manner, and the Senate adopted it in a transparent manner. Both made clear in budget documents and legislation that the tax is an 18 cent surcharge fot the Line of Duty fund, providing death and disability benefits to uniformed first responders injured or killed on the job.
The deception and withholding of information was done by Americans for Prosperity, which did not reveal that the tax is only 18 cents a month, distorted the purpose of the tax, and refuses to disclose contributors with a mistaken idea of vested interest that might be paying AP to gin up a grassroots attack.
- Steve Lebowitz, Annapolis, Maryland
Steve,
Glad to hear we have common ground. However I don’t understand your anger at AFP for not disclosing contributors. Is that somehow different from not disclosing that this entire trust fund idea is from labor and that is a major reason the former governor and the democratic senate are behind it? Surely you don’t believe that only labor unions can have grass roots.
I think we should stick to the facts of the idea and whether it passes muster on its own. Selective use of facts is wrong for both sides.
Anyway, it is almost over for this year. Hope all is well in Maryland.
And today we find more republicans of courage and integrity who have spoken up about the need to reverse the decline in the condition of the state’s transportation infrastructure. Tom Rust and Chairman Joe May have proposed the creation of a transportation infrastructure user fee of $0.15 that would be levied on gasoline to jump start the construction of needed projects. This is required because there is no new money for construction, and we don’t really have enough money for maintenance either. Having dug a hole for the last decade, the majority in the House of Delegates must now realize they will punished at the polls if they don’t resolve this issue.
I’ve been told the .18 cent per line fee was included in the final budget vote. I’ll have to check on that report.
Nope it was not. I think the employers of the covered folks now have to pay the premiums to cover the benefits.
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