Dems Dumb on Guns in Restaurants
By Brian Kirwin | Thursday, February 11th, 2010 | PolicyDo Democrats actually think a gun-totin’ shooter intent on blasting people in a restaurant will stop and say “Gee, I was gonna murder some folks, but since it’s against the law for me to carry concealed in a restaurant, I guess I’ll just go play backgammon”???
The Virginian-Pilot thinks so, in their editorial where they think that honest, law-abiding, legal carrying adults suddenly become wanton threats in a restaurant where busboys will need to pass out the bulletproof vests.
The Senate Courts Committee passed a bill allowing people to carry concealed in restaurants. (Daily Press)
But alcohol is served there, say others. Folks, I’m a lot more worried about people getting liquored up and driving (something that happens every night, and constantly in this town during the summer) than I am about someone who’s never shot anyone in his life suddenly turning into Lee Harvey Oswald.
These gun owners are free to drink as much as they want at home if they want, and they somehow find a way not to shoot anyone.
I’m not afraid of anyone legally carrying concealed while I’m in a restaurant. I am afraid of the people who wouldn’t care what the law said in the first place.
Tags:
Contribute for Conservatism!
Share this post
About the author
The right wants to jeer him. The left wants to censor him. Moderates usually want both. Brian Kirwin is a political consultant and public relations strategist in Virginia Beach with a lightning-rod flair. Brian also serves on the VB Arts & Humanities Commission and frequently appears on Hampton Roads theatrical stages, if only to prove that all actors aren’t liberals. Kirwin’s columns stir up debate and hit the political scene with no punches pulled.
We're 75% there! Thank you to everyone who has so far contributed! Just $2000 to go!
Comments
31 Responses to "Dems Dumb on Guns in Restaurants"
The problem here is that Kirwin expects the Left to act rationally. The Left is engaged in forwarding their agenda – including promoting the premise that anyone who wants to exercise their 2nd Amendment right is an unreasonable person. Rational discussion is to be avoided. In its place is “Chant the chant – rant the rant”. Once they succeed with this propagandizing, it will be easy for them to disarm America – a step necessary to their totalitarian goal. It is time for the Right to acknowledge the true nature of the Left – that they are not honorable persons with different opinions, but dishonorable, deceitful agents – with a clandestine goal of “Fundamental Change”.
How many folks did that guy from Virgina – with a legal concealed weapon permit kill with his gun a few weeks ago? 5? Including children? Including a kid from the neighborhood who just happened to be at his house?
It’s amazing to me that no matter how many people are killed by folks legally carrying guns, y’all seem to think it won’t happen to me. Never mind the fact that we have 10x the murder rate by guns of Canada or the UK. What would you think if that guy had killed your child?
Now you can respond with the usual empty NRA propaganda soundbites.
At least we can spell “Virginia”
again the Free Market can prevail here. my understanding of the bill is not that restaurants and bars are forced to allow people with guns in the door. just like before the smoking ban, the restaurant owner should be able to say guns are not allowed in their establishment.
Brian: Your argument against the deterrent value of the law is essentially correct. It’s correct about the deterrent value of most laws.
I used to cover a lot of criminal trials a few years ago and the one striking thing to me was that criminals don’t think like the rest of us. An inability to foresee the logical consequences of thier actions is a large part of what seperates them from the rest of us.
That’s why I’ve always argued against the deterrent value of capital punishment (I’m in favor of the death penalty, I think there are some things it’s the only just punishment for, but deterrence isn’t an arguement for it.), the death penalty deters you or I from committing murder, but we weren’t going to anyway.
However, I think lifting the ban on guns in bars might encourage normally law-abiding gun owners to carry into bars where they might get involved in situations that get out of control. Alcohol has a tendency to create those situations.
If we’re going to do this, we should at least balance it with a significant penalty for drinking, not being drunk-drinking at all, when carrying a loaded firearm. That’s consistent with the policy for armed military and police, who have more training than your average concealed weapons permit holder.
How about a potential sentence of up to 12 months in jail and a fine of up to $1,000 and a MANDATORY revocation of your carry permit?
Guns is bars is already legal. The only ban is on concealed weapons.
BK: Try to carry openly into most restaurants and they’ll tell you they don’t allow guns. They don’t have that option for people carrying concealed. But again, I’m willing to compromise. What do you think of a strong penalty for drinking will carrying a loaded weapon– open or concealed?
“that guy from Virgina”.. how many people would have been killed if others in proxmity had been packing? Same question goes for the Ft. Hood and the UVA shootings. These nuts are the exceptions, not the rule which plays nicely into agenda journalism.
Why does the headline say “Democrats Dumb On…”
The reason it passed committee by one vote was 4 of 10 Democrats voted for it.
“Don’t take your guns to town son, leave your guns at home Bill, don’t take your guns to town.”
What’s the big deal? Take off your coat when you walk in the door.
If Mark made the laws, we would spell it “Virgina”. “Virgina is for Lovers” would be our marketing theme. A percentage of folk would feel left out, however. How discriminatory.
“It’s amazing to me that no matter how many people are killed by folks legally carrying guns, y’all seem to think it won’t happen to me. Never mind the fact that we have 10x the murder rate by guns of Canada or the UK. What would you think if that guy had killed your child?” – Mark
The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) has received reports of over 275 young children who have drowned in buckets since 1984. Over 30 other children have been hospitalized. Almost all of the containers were 5-gallon buckets containing liquids. Most were used for mopping floors or other household chores. Many were less than half full.
Isn’t it time we outlaw 5 gallon buckets? Like with Mark’s train of thought, what if it was YOUR child that drowned in a bucket? Want to outlaw buckets now? I sure do!! I’m convinced!
I love all the arguements about crime ratios with guns in countries with strict gun laws. Mexico has strong gun laws, yet plenty of gun deaths in certain portions of Mexico. Other parts of Mexico, I admit you’d face knives. England with its strong firearms laws, forgot to outlaw bombs in restaurants when the IRA was raising hell over there. Not sure if concealed bombs were illegal or not. Well at least there wasn’t as much shooting right?
“Try to carry openly into most restaurants and they’ll tell you they don’t allow guns. They don’t have that option for people carrying concealed.” – Steven Vaughn
Steven, we hold Tidewater Libertarian Party meetings in a restaurant. If you have ever been to one, you’d feel fairly certain that any potential robber or gang of robbers, would be at a distinct fire power disadvantage. Granted they don’t serve alcohol there, but it is a restaurant (Atlanta Bread Company). I don’t think anything was ever said at any of the previous restaurants we met at before either.
Back to booze, shouldn’t we ban pepper spray in bars? After all, things tend to get out of hand when booze is around. 151 concerns me too, being so flammable. An angry drunk could order a shot, light it, and toss it. And all those big knives at steak houses that serve liqour. What if somebody stabs somebody in a drunken rage?
I’m open to compromise too Steven. I believe in personal property rights. A restaurant owned by a “Virginan” could post a sign saying that they don’t allow firearms and they reserve the right to strip search customers just in case they are carrying concealed. That would even catch illegal concealers without a permit!!!!
Hey, if you want to carry a gun……if you don’t like being subject to strip searches, don’t enter my bar!! Free markets and property rights dude! You can be a good little socialist/totalitarian in your own bar if you want to. All that and not trample my constitutional rights. It is truly a win/win.
Another misconception evident here is that a restaurant is the owner’s “private property”. Let that owner exercise his right of private property by putting a sign at the door reading “Persons of Color Prohibited from Entering”, and he would learn rather quickly that his private property is instead a “place of public accommodation”, where he is required to honor the various civil rights (of his prospective patrons) granted either by God or by Congress. Is not the right to keep and bear arms a “civil right”?
Britt,
You and I don’t have a real disagreement. I agree that you have a right to carry. I don’t agree that you then have a right to engage in irresponsible behavior that endangers others, like consuming alcohol while carrying a loaded firearm. Anyone who’s ever been around firearms, either as a hunter, in the military or just as a gun enthusiast knows this is just common sense. Unfortunately, these days we need laws to enforce common sense.
Concealed weapons are only “allowed” by those who are not drinking! So to say that one would carry a concealed weapon and start shooting up a place is nonsense. We should have the right to protect ourself in a bar or restaurant if the needed arises. Look at what happened at Hardee’s on Denbigh Blvd., the female worker was shot and killed during a robbery. He could have went after others, so law-abiding citizens should have the right to protect themselves and others in those places as well.
@Mary, Here Here!! I will move to Yorktown and vote for you if you decide to run for something! Is Brenda Pogge taking care of you up there?
Brian is exactly right; you can carry right now into any restaurant that serves alcohol, as long as its open and on your hip and visible. So the whole argument that we are suddenly allowing guns in bars is not true; we already do, and in the open! This would only allow law abiding citizens who have a concealed weapons permit to carry their gun. Right now someone with a permit can go into a McDonald’s restaurant but not a Pizza Hut because the later serves alcohol. Makes no sense
Bryan R,
Wrong. Try to carry openly into most restaurants and they’ll tell you that they don’t allow firearms in their establishment. Which they have a right to do.
Steve Vaughan I’d like to know what restaurants you go to where you can’t openly carry a holstered handgun. I’ve lived in Virginia for 2.5 years now and have only had 2 places say the first negative word about my openly carried firearm in any of the many restaurants I’ve visited all over the state and I dine in restaurants serving alcohol for most of my meals. My wife and I regularly carry holstered handguns in about 20 different local restaurants and I’ve been at dinners where there have been in excess of 100 of us carrying openly. I speak with regularity to folks who dine all over the state while openly carrying holstered handguns and it is truly a rare event that any of them have an issue when dining out that way.
Steve Vaughan,
Wrong.. I open carry several times a week in restaurants around the state (mainly central and northern VA).. I have done it for YEARS and have never been told that firearms are not allowed in their establishments.. I have ran into a few restaurants that are clearly posted that they do not allow firearms inside their business.. For those, I do not enter.. But that has never stopped me from getting a good bite to eat..
Alright. I stand corrected.
would those of you who regularly carry openly support restriction on drinking while carrying a loaded firearm?
Steve, public intoxication is already prohibited whether carrying a firearm or not. Further it is already illegal to be under the influence of alcohol while in possession of a concealed weapon. Enforcement of these statutes should be adequate to address situations, which arise from someone drinking and carrying, the same as drinking and driving (without consideration to specific drinking and driving laws). Further, ABC licensees are responsible for each drink they serve, so a licensee can already deny liquor service to those who may be carrying a firearm or any who they are not comfortable serving. Although it may be permissible to have a single glass of wine or a single beer while carrying openly, I know of very few carriers who would even be willing to imbibe that much while carrying.
JRM,
Thanks you for addressing the issue.
“Although it may be permissible to have a single glass of wine or a single beer while carrying openly, I know of very few carriers who would even be willing to imbibe that much while carrying.”
Great. I’d just like to enshrine that zero-tolerane policy, that everybody agrees is a good idea, into the law.
Don’t drink, you can carry into a bar. Get caught drinking, not under the influence, just drinking, while carrying and it’s a Class 1 misdeamenor and mandatory revocation of concealed carry permit, if applicable.
Seems like that would make everyone happy, except the extreme anti-gun people. I’m not one of those.
Steve, as JRM already stated, that law is already in effect.. And please stop talking about carrying a weapon in a bar.. In Virginia, there are no bars….. There are only restaurants.. That is part of the problem with the public getting scared of “drunken gun-toters”.. Most CHP’s would just like to go to Applebee’s, sit down with their family, and be semi-comfortable in realizing that if some crazy comes in, then can defend themselves and their family’s if need be.. Or if someone tries to jump them while they are walking from their vehicles to the restaurant.. The last time I looked (which was about 6 months ago), there were only 9 states that did not allow concealed carry in restaurants.. That means that 41 states allow it, and I don’t see the issues with “drunkin gun-toters”..
Lets look at it like this, currently, you can not carry a firearm concealed into a restaurant that serves alcohol for onsite consumption.. The only legal way to protect yourself is to open carry.. So, what myself, I would say the majority of CHP holders currently do is switch to open carry when we go through the doors of a restaurant.. Those that have made a personal choice to not open carry will tend to disarm and lock their firearms in their vehicles.. So, TODAY, it is perfectly legal to consume alcohol while carrying a firearm openly up to a point (can’t remember what the actual BAC point is, sorry).. And TODAY, there are not “wild west” shoot outs and blood flowing through the streets.. What will change by removing the concealed carry restrictions and leaving the rest of the laws the way it is??
Did you realize that the current law being debated allows for active and retired LE and Commonwealth attorney’s to get plastered while being armed?? What makes them better then myself?? Don’t tell me that they have more “training” then I do.. I can guarantee that every time I have gone to the range (except once when I was the only one there, it was a wonderful range visit) there has been a LEO there practicing for his/her re-qual and couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn.. And those are both local and federal.. Granted, I have never, and will never drink alcohol while I am armed.. Nor will I drink if I have to drive in the near future..
Jeff L
“Did you realize that the current law being debated allows for active and retired LE and Commonwealth attorney’s to get plastered while being armed?? What makes them better then myself”
No, I didn’t. I oppose that provision of the bill then.
Look, I’m not naive about this. I served in the military in a position that required carrying a weapon. Drinking while doing do would have been a serious court martial offense.
I don’t think it’s outrageous to require civilians who are carrying, either openly or concealed, who do pose a potential danger to rest of the populace, to live up to that same standard.
Again, I believe in the Second Amendement. I think you have the right to carry. I’m not opposed to lifting the restriction on carrying concealed in restaurants. I don’t see what the problem is with writing what everyone agrees is the correct policy — don’t drink while carrying a loaded weapon — into the law, with consequences.
well, you really can’t compare the military to civilian life.. When you join the military, you give up a great deal of your civil liberties.. That is one of the reasons why I got out..
According to currently Virginia Law, it is already illegal to drink and carry a firearm..
VA Criminal Code § 18.2-308 covers all things Concealed Carry..
Section J1 states:
“Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.”
So, there you have no concern since it is already illegal..
Why. Why do we need guns hidden or otherwise in restraunts or beer halls? Is drinking and carrying a weapon smart? Is it an exercise of freedom and don’t people without guns have a teeny bit of legitimate concern?
Howdy,
Why?? WHY????? Because it is your basic right to protect yourself!!! A firearm is just a tool that you can use to protect yourself. Other tools can be a knife, a bat, a baton, a car, a bat, your hands, your feet, etc etc etc…. And as long as criminals have firearms and will use them to cause harm to other people, then I have the right to protect myself with equal force.
Drinking while carry a firearm is already a criminal offense according to VA criminal code. As well as drinking and doing a whole bunch of other things.
For me, carrying a weapon or firearm in a restaurant has nothing to do with an exercise of freedom, but an exercise of the fundamental right of LIFE. Most “gun nuts” will say that the Right to carry a gun is protected by the second amendment of the US Constitution (or Art. I, § 13 of the VA Constitution). For me, I disagree, somewhat. The right to carry a firearm was granted July 4, 1776 when the second continental congress adopted the statement known as the Declaration of Independence. Under the second paragraph it is stated, and I quote:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
I have the unalienable Right to LIFE thus I have the RIGHT to protect that life. And as long as there is one evil person in this world that MIGHT have the desire or ability to take that Right of Life, then I will carry a firearm anywhere I go “legally”. This will include a restaurant (VA doesn’t have “beer halls”) because I have no clue when somebody with evil intent will try to harm me or my family at that restaurant or to and fro.
Ok, I was going to say something else, but I have lost my train of thought in my old age.. sorry
Jeff L:According to currently Virginia Law, it is already illegal to drink and carry a firearm..
VA Criminal Code § 18.2-308 covers all things Concealed Carry..
Section J1 states:
“Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.”
So, there you have no concern since it is already illegal..”
Nope, you misread the statute. What you quote makes it illegal to be drunk (under the influence). It should be illegal to drink (consume) alcohol or illegal drugs will carrying.
I disagree.
While I would never carry while drinking outside of my home, I think I am perfectly capable of doing so responsibly. Everyone I have ever met feels the same way. However, I know of people that do enjoy a drink or two while carrying in public, and do so responsibly. Those one or two drinks don’t turn them in to raving lunatics intent on shooting anything that moves. Some people can handle it, others can’t. Why are you so intent on eliminating this ability of responsible individuals? It just isn’t a problem. Where are the drunkards in the streets shooting out lights, and signs?
First off, If a handgun is truly “Concealed” none of you will know its there. I DO NOT DRINK ALCOHOL but have to refrain from entering places like Pizza Hut that serve alcohol and food. In a town that has the highest crime rate per capita in the U.S. I will not leave the house unarmed. You may want to become a victim..not me. I will read about you in the paper.
I found you through Amanda’s site. . .wonderful topic.
Leave your response