Debating the Confederacy, Jackson and Lee
By Danae Jones Aicher | Wednesday, January 14th, 2009 | Catch-AllIt has taken me a few days to decide to respond to J.R.’s petition to change the Jackson Lee holiday to Virginia Heritage Day. I had to get my head around this debate. It’s painful. And I still haven’t decided to sign the petition.
For those of who read the blog regularly and don’t know… I am black. I am liberal. I am Southern. And I’m proud. But I’m so tired to people talking around this issue.
J.R., I really appreciate your effort. You’re right. It is important to recognize and honor all of Virginia’s heroes, although it raises a debate over who really is a hero. What’s so infuriating is the fact that there is any debate at all over whether or not it was right to fight on the side of the Confederacy.
I don’t give two hoots about someone teaching little black kids the Bible. Jackson wasn’t helping them. He was teaching them to accept their inferior and substandard lot in life and using Christ to justify it. That’s how the Bible was used then and, that all by itself is sinful.
And the suggestion that these men fought for freedom! Whose freedom? Surely no one would suggest that either of these great Virginians were fighting for my freedom.
Like most of us today, Jackson and Lee had admirable traits and horrible flaws. It makes them human, and therefore deserving of some respect. But it doesn’t change the fact that they were on the wrong side.
Anyone who even attempts to offer up reasons why anyone might be so angry with America as to fly planes into the World Trade Center would immediately be shut down. Why bring up 9/11? Because the terrorists were wrong. And there’s no good excuse for what they did. And no matter how you spin it, the South was wrong. And Lee, Jackson, and Virginia in general were on the wrong side, too. The fact that there is even a debate over whether or not it was wrong only shows we, as a nation, have a long way to go in facing our crimes.
The South was defending an attack on its culture; a culture and a heritage that literally depended upon-could not have existed and thrived without- cruelty towards an entire race of people. It doesn’t matter that there were some who didn’t own slaves. It’s like saying Germans who didn’t actively participate in concentration camps didn’t play a role. The entire Southern society was complicit in this crime against humanity. The nation was complicit. And this crime against humanity continued long past the end of the Civil War with the help of the very people who fought for it and/or were sympathizers. Furthermore, the very same people who wave the rebel flag in the name of “heritage not hate”, are descendents of those who implemented and staunchly defended a modern day system of disenfranchisement.
Now having said all that, I’m not sure I’m going to sign the petition- as much as I appreciate what’s at the heart of it. Virginia, as well as the larger South, has a lot to celebrate in our history. The South gave rise to people like Martin Luther King, Thurghood Marshall, and countless others-black and white- who really fought for freedom. But, I want to remember people like Jackson and Lee and all of those who fought, effectively, against a forced end to slavery. Like the Holocaust, I hope we never forget.
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15 Responses to "Debating the Confederacy, Jackson and Lee"
Thank you! I completely agree with everything you said. Even as a white gal with a long Southern history (and a descendant of Jeff Davis) I don’t understand why there’s a debate. It’s about hate, not heritage.
Even for those who insist it’s about heritage, how can they persist in their views knowing how hateful the symbols and leaders of the confederacy are considered by a large (or even small) part of the population. The swastika is an ancient symbol meaning strength and good luck. But who would stick one in front of their house or celebrate it in any way after it was used by the Nazis? And yet we still see confederate flags and celebrate the leaders of the Confederacy. It amazes me.
Confederate flag wavers who say it’s about heritage need to explain why they don’t have a British flag, too.
That’s our heritage, too, and it took a war to defeat it.
That was a well-written and thoughtful post, but I beg to differ. I’m a “G** Damn Yankee, transplanted from Michigan. My great grand uncle fought for the Yanks and was captured and survived Andersonville Prison [so I'm not one who refuses to accept that the war is over].
I’ve studied the “War of Northern Agression” with great interest for years. The war originally started because Lincoln was elected and the southern states did not want him as President. They felt that they had the right to dissolve ties with a nation that they had voluntarily joined just decades earlier. Back then, citizens saw themselves as citizens of states first, which had happened to join together to form a loose knit nation composed of those states. Sort of like the European Union now. And the southern states were proud and they were warriors. They felt like the other states were forcing them to do something that they had no business telling them. Most southern people did not own slaves, so it is foolish to say that they were fighting “for slavery.” Admittedly, the slave-holders were, and they were encouraging others to fight for their right to own slaves. But that was not the main thrust of the war from the southern perspective. It was being told what to do by citizens of other states.
It would be like if New York dictated to Virginia that we could not ban abortions. Ooops. Bad example because that is acceptable now. Or as if Utah said Virginia had to outlaw booze because the Mormons in Utah did not like it. We would rightfully say, take a hike. And if they tried to persist we would fight them–or at least I would. I’ll grant you, the South eventually was out-positioned (propaganda-wise) by the North, until the war eventually became a war to keep the slaves or to free them. And they were wrong to own slaves and to not free them. But at first the war was about the South seceding from the Union and the North fighting to keep the South from seceding. Lincoln even said he would allow slavery if the South would not secede. [Don't make me go find the quote.
] It was only after the first two years that Lincoln changed postion and made the Emancipation Proclamation.
And I fully understand how people feel who say it’s heritage, not hate. It is people like Lawyer Mama who take that attitude who just piss off the flag wavers and make them all the more stubborn in their refusal to be told what to do. Sure, she is entitled to her opinion, but to demonize people who hold a different view is childish and counter-productive. How do pro-choice people like being called hateful baby-killers? After all, the Nazis killed babies…
Danae,
That’s a nice little expose about Lee and Jackson, however, you are leaving out one critical component. Proof. How do you know whether or not Jackson gave part of his paycheck to support a Sunday School for slaves in order to indoctrinize them? Do you have proof. I know that Robert E. Lee stated that his belief was that if the South had won, slavery would have been outlawed in short order. Your analysis of these men is critically flawed. I am adamately disgusted by slavery, the Republican Party of the day was as well. Here in the South Lynchburg, Virginia had a Republican newspaper, who you guessed it, it said kind things about Jackson. As other commentors have pointed out, most Southerners did not own slaves. It is my opinion that the cause that the South was fighting for was states rights, they sought a confederate govt. and not a federalist govt. It is also my belief that the war itself, and the blood spilled, was a consequence of devaluing life through slavery.
Which states rights?
States rights to own slaves, maybe. It’s like those people who talk about the “right to choose” without answering “right to choose what?”
The states rights that the South was fighting for was a Confederate form of govt.
Jackson and Lee both spoke out against slavery on certain occassions. Lee was offered command of the Union forces at the beginning of the war. Several of the states that stayed in the Union were also slave states. The fight against slavery transcended the Civil War.
Brain, I agree with your point on abortion.
Danae Jones said, “the very same people who wave the rebel flag in the name of “heritage not hate”, are descendents of those who implemented and staunchly defended a modern day system of disenfranchisement.”
What a load of self-righteous crap. No white person today has ever held slaves, has never known anyone who has, and has never seen a slave. Your attempt to paint everyone who has pride in their Southern heritage as devils is far from convincing.
You, however, being black, are also a descendent of slaveholders. And not only via the well-documented black slaveholders in America 200 years ago, because black people in Africa are still keeping slaves TODAY!!! So you are MORE guilty of what you are accusing white people of.
http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/13478.html
From the website above…
“Slavery has been endemic in Sudan for thousands of years. Today the Sudanese slave trade persists as a complex network of buyers, sellers, and middlemen that operates most actively when times are favorable to the practice.”
You should get down on your knees and thank God for American slavery. If it had never happened, you would be living on a Continent that begs for food from the world every year. You may even be a slave today, and then you could REALLY speak with authority on the subject!
You have personally benefited GREATLY from American slavery. You live a life that the average African couldn’t even dream of. Spare me the crocodile tears.
To Brian Kirwin,
We do not still fly the British flag, because in 1776 it was the U.S. flag that was called the “rebel flag”.
Our heritage is what the Confederate Flag represents, freedom from an oppressive government and a independent government that provides representation for the Southern people, which were being ripped off at the time by unfair taxes placed on them by the North! Even though the Southern people made up 30% of the population, they paid 80% of the nations taxes. This is known as “tyranny of the majority”, AKA “Taxation Without Representation” Did the colonies not have slaves in the FIRST Revolution? Should we totally ignore their fight for independence because of that? Was slavery not also one the British excuses to invade the rebelling colonies?
Don’t compare rebels to loyalists because they’re anything but similar.
I hope to God that this little petition to once again to erase part of Virginia’s history FAILS MISERABLY.
Sincerly,
Trevor of Virginia
As a Proud Jewish Southerner, who had a relatives die in both the Holocaust and The War Between The States, I would like to say that I am deeply offended by the closing statement of your article comparing the Confederate States Of America to Nazi Germany.
Comparing Nazi Germany to the Confederacy just shows your ignorance and your stupidity. Hitler was one of the biggest threats to State’s Rights this world has ever seen since Lincoln. Comparing a National Socialist totalitarian dictatorship to a Limited State’s Rights based Constitutional Republic is rediculous and a disgrace to Jews everywhere. The only Jewish military cemetery outside of Israel is the Jewish Confederate Cemetery in Richmond!
Also the the first Confederate Attorney General, Secretary of War, and Secretary of State was a Jew named Judah P. Benjamin! He was also featured on the Confederate 2 Dollar Bill! If you wann to look for a Nation to compare to Nazi Germany and Hitler then look the the North, Hitler claimed that Lincoln “inspired” him. The US wanted a highly centralized government just like the Germans!
- Rabbi Abramsky
No we shouldn’t ignore the fight for independence, anymore than we should ignore the Civil War.
All I’m saying is, in both cases, the losers shouldn’t be able to wave their flags.
Wow. Talk about a totalitarian. “The losers shouldn’t be able to wave their flags.” What country are you from again? You certainly can’t be from the Home of the Free and the Land of the Brave. Go back to the little communist dictatorship rock that you crawled out from under.
Holy crap, Danae! You make great points here, and I love that you’ve taken on this topic. Of course you know that I respectfully disagree with you on some of these very valid and persuasive ideas. But I certainly would never attack your family history, intelligence, or integrity as some others do here. Yikes! And my, how prone to misquoting you these folks are! It’s a shame we cannot have a more civil discussion of ideas.
Where I disagree with you is primarily in your comparison of Confederate leaders/soldiers/sympathizers with modern-day foreign terrorists. As I see it, this was hardly a north vs. south issue. At the outset of the Civil War, a striking majority of industrialists in New York City wanted to secede as well because of their dependence on cheap, slave-picked cotton. Many, if not most, northern soldiers did not fight for anyone’s civil rights — except, perhaps, their own. You are right in saying that the entire nation was complicit in slavery.
As I see it, all combatants in the Civil War were Americans. And, though the consequences of the conflict were horrific, this war was a necessary step in our growth toward a more free and equitable society. It did not end racial inequity. But it changed the Constitution from a document that institutionalized slavery to a foundation upon which our nation and our culture could build toward the equality of all citizens. Confederate leaders were, in my mind, constitutionally justified in seceding from the union. Confederates fought to protect the Constitution in its original form. The north fought to advance a newer vision, and the one that was necessary to ensure our future growth and existence.
I take much pride in heroes both of the Confederacy and of the Union. My family claims descent from Lee, and I consider him an honorable man of his time and one of our country’s greatest tactical leaders. I take great pride in Lincoln’s leadership and consider him one of our greatest presidents. I take great pride in Frederick Douglass’s bravery in speaking truth to power, no matter the cost.
These are all Americans of great stature, and I find no conflict in listing all of them together. It would be a disservice to segregate them as types of Americans or attempt to place them on opposing sides of good or evil. All of these dead have been buried. What remains is how we discuss with one another the lessons of history, and how they define us as the people of one nation.
In the aftermath of any conflict, I don’t know that there is much value in saying which side was right and which side was wrong. But I do think there is great value in the facts of what happened. And there has sadly been a lag in mainstream recognition of the reality of what took place over the course of our history — as evidenced even by several of the comments here. I think our “truth and reconciliation” about the Civil War and Civil Rights Movement (and I include in there all activists from abolitionists to the present) has yet to arrive. And it can only be accomplished through education and civil debate of ideas. Like what you’ve introduced here.
“It doesn’t matter that there were some who didn’t own slaves. It’s like saying Germans who didn’t actively participate in concentration camps didn’t play a role. The entire Southern society was complicit in this crime against humanity.”
Hmmmm rather broad and badly conceived notion isn’t it? By that logic then, you, yourself are guilty of “The patriot act”, which has stripped so much of our freedom to solidarity and privacy away from us….. You are also guilty of every civil right violation / bad government decision during your time here on earth…. Remember that in the world outside of Hollywood movies, a single person doesn’t always change the course of history on his or her own. Sometimes one person really can’t make a difference on a scale that reshapes the world…… Consider how many people screamed at the top of their lungs that Iraq was a bad idea in 2003…. Did anyone listen? Not really… Most people were so caught up in patriotic blindness that they would have invaded the depths of hell itself had bush said it was necessary…..
Now, does that mean that a person choosing to refrain from indulging in the popular trend and doing what they consider the correct course of action isn’t to be admired? Of course not….. If someone forgoes the trend and does their own thing in life, then THAT in and of itself is their stance for better or worse……. So please, consider the implications of using blanket statements like this….. Its demeaning to a lot of us, just as I’m sure plenty of none slave holding southerners of the civil war and Germans of the Nazi era would agree….. I myself have not and never will support the patriot act or any other form of legislation that so severely hampers our individual freedoms. And I can only hope history looks back on this dark time in our nation’s history with an open mind and realization that some of us weren’t afraid of sacraficing a bit of safety to preserve our civil liberties.
Me, I await your stories of how the Patriot Act harmed you. As you warn against “blanket statements,” your comment is filled with them.
Meanwhile, the difference between Confederate Slavery and German Nazism is that Germany isn’t celebrating their concentration camps and holocaust with holidays, parades and flags.
For those of you who speak out against our Southern history and the Confederacy please visit this site: http://www.southernheritage411.com it covers the TRUE history, slavery, and blacks who more than willingly fought for the Confederacy during the war.
Some facts on slavery: by 1700 42% of all NEW YORK households had slaves.
Massachusetts and Rhode Island were the primary slave trading states up until the start of the war.
The North was not friendly to black people whatsoever. Indiana, Iowa, Illinois had laws in place banning blacks from living within the state.
The Emancipation Proclamation freed no slaves but was used as propaganda to prevent England from entering on the side of the Confederacy.
Per the US Census of 1860:
20% of Southern slaveholders owned only 1 slave.
only 3% of slaveholders owned more than 50 slaves (this includes the largest plantation in Louisiana which owned over 100 slaves and was owned and ran by a free black husband and wife)
only 15 slaveholders in the entire South owned more than 500 slaves.
90% of Southern households did not own any slaves and were against slavery…the bulk of these making up the soldiers in the Confederate Army.
The top 5 states with the HIGHEST PERCENTAGE of free blacks were Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, and Louisiana (mostly southern states) and there were many prominent free blacks in high society….not can be said true up North.
According to multiple US census records thousands of free blacks owned slaves themselves.
the slave narratives, which interviewed surviving slaves concluding that of the Southern slaves interviewed, 87% had nothing but praise for their masters and were treated better than when they were free.
After the war over 90% of ex-slaves went back to live and work with their old masters.
Now I dont support slavery…but some facts that put it into perspective. Many in the South were working to outlaw slavery at the onset of the war, and a little known fact…for those who ever read the Confederate Constitution the Confederacy was the FIRST country in the western world to ban the slave trade and the importation of slaves.
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