Poll: Should Virginia end Lee-Jackson Day and establish Virginia Heritage Day?
By JR Hoeft | Sunday, January 11th, 2009 | Catch-AllLast week’s post on Lee-Jackson Day has certainly stimulated discussion.
If you have not been compelled to sign our petition or comment on the original post, we’re still interested in your view.
So, what’s your opinion?
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About the author
JR Hoeft
Conservative to the core; liberal with his opinion! J.R. has been involved in politics for over a decade and has worked on several campaigns in Hampton Roads. He has served on the Executive Committee of the Republican Party of Chesapeake and the Central Committee of the Republican Party of Virginia. He is also the director of “Blogs United” in Virginia. E-mail J.R.. Follow J.R. on Twitter.
Comments
124 Responses to "Poll: Should Virginia end Lee-Jackson Day and establish Virginia Heritage Day?"
Perhaps in honor of those who support Lee-Jackson Day, we should stop African Americans and women from voting in the poll.
Yeah, Brian, I’m sure the United Daughters of the Confederacy think Lee-Jackson Day is sexist.
[...] Vote by clicking here [...]
Brian:
There you go again. . . it is not a black and white issue.
Most Confederates owned no slaves. Many northerners did, to include many general officers fighting in the Union army. In fact, as a percentage of population, more free blacks owned black slaves than whites owned black slaves. You liberals think the descendants of black slave owners should receive reparations just like the descendants of black slaves and that it should be paid for by the descendants of whites who never owned black slaves. That is where you are leading.
The Emancipation Proclamation did not free slaves in all states, Deleware, Maryland, Kentucky et al. Union policy and majority northern opinion was not to end slavery, but to preserve the Union (force free people who don’t want to be part of the Union to have to stay in it by armed invasion).
This was about free people (I know only white men voted, but only white men voted in Ohio too. That is how voting was done back then) who voted to be independent. Virginia voted twice; first after Ft. Sumter they voted to stay in the Union, then after Lincoln called for them to be forced to provide troops to invade other states, they voted again this time to secede.
They intended to stay peaceful in their homes until Union forces invaded Virginia. When their peaceful actions were met with armed invasion of their state and confiscation of property (Lee’s home at Arlington was the only one) Then they fought to defend themselves.
And what is this about honoring people who didn’t win the war? Scots honor William Wallace too! (the movie Braveheart since you don’t know history, you may at least know recent movies) If you fought for freedom and lost it doesn’t mean you can’t be honored.
Sheesh, another hooded comment.
I know, I know. The Civil War wasn’t about slavery. It was about how many licks it took to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop.
How silly of me!
Brian:
I am far from a “hooded” type.
I didn’t say the war wasn’t caused primarily by slavery, but said the war aims and policy were not to destroy slavery until the end when the institution was destroyed. It was about freedom and self-determination. The forces that invaded our state in 1861 did not come here to free the slaves, they came to restore the Union by force. They were opposed by patriots.
If you want to attack black hating bigots who were Confederates or past and current Yankees who still are, I will be right there with you. I deplore racism.
But instead you attacked Lee and Jackson, far from the “hooded” types you pretend to discredit.
Jackson sent part of his paycheck home from the front to support a black school in Lexington. Hardly the act of a “hooded” type.
You need to pick your battles better. Learning a little history may help.
I think what some of the commenters on this post and the original post have been dancing around is whether or not Lee-Jackson Day is “code” for something else.
Some argue passionately that it is merely an observance meant to show respect for two men who have been described variously as great warriors and Christians.
Others, who may not be especially well represented on this website, may see memorials to the Old South and the Confederacy as “coded” appeals to racism, segregation, Jim Crow, and other aspects of the Old South that are not remembered with fondness by certain groups.
It was no coincidence that the symbols of the Confederacy made a massive return to popularity among Southern Whites during the period of Massive Resistance to school integration and the general desegregation of Southern Society. Nor was it a coincidence that the Republican Party’s Southern Strategy emerged shortly after the Civil Rights and Voting RIghts movements won important victories in Congress and the Supreme Court in the late Fifties and early Sixties.
This issue has special relevance to the Republican Party at this particular moment in time, and Jim Hoeft is right to call attention to it, however obliquely. When the Southern Strategy was first instituted by Goldwater and Nixon, it paid real dividends to the Republican Party. The “Solid South” rapidly changed from a Democratic stronghold to a Republican stronghold, and was key to Republican political success from Nixon through George W. Bush.
But the cost-benefit analysis of continuing the Southern Strategy has suddenly and radically changed. There seems to have been a significant shift in the American public’s perception of racism and racists. If you had asked a White Southerner about his racial attitudes in the late Sixties, you would very likely find that racist attitudes were not only common and accepted, they were actively asserted with pride. Southern racists committed crimes of startling violence and were acquitted by all White juries who tacitly condoned the use of racist violence to maintain the status quo. Now, in the first decade of the 21st century, attitudes have changed.
Ask a White Southerner the same question about their racial attitudes and you would be far less likely to find someone expressing overtly racist attitudes. Being a racist in today’s society carries a stigma that most people do not want to bear. Racism still exists, but it is mostly covert, not overt.
Basing political campaigns on a racist subtext, even a covert “dogwhistle” racism, has abruptly ceased to yield electoral victory for the Republican Party. What does the future hold for the GOP? It’s hard to say. The GOP could shrink and become a regional party based in the South, Utah, Idaho, Wyoming and Alaska and maintain it’s reverence for symbols tainted by past association with racism. To me, that seems the most likely outcome. Or the GOP could discard the Southern Strategy and make a new, more broad based appeal on the basis of conservative ideologies–though whether this would be social or fiscal conservatism is anyone’s guess.
To conclude, the central problem for the GOP going forward is the failure of the Southern Strategy. Arguments like the one surrounding this poll and petition are really arguments about the future direction of the GOP and whether it can shake itself free of the symbols of the Southern Strategy.
I agree with you democrat. My point was and has been simply the attack on Lee and Jackson. Completely unwarranted.
Now to move against not just the “Old South” but the period on Jim Crow and massive resistance, I agree the Republican party should emphasize that these policies were the policies of the democrats. Democrats enacted the Jim Crow laws, a Democrat governor stood in the school house door, it was a Republican president that federalized the National Guard and integrated the schools.
The Republicans have a good civil rights record. The Democrats have a poor one; although you wouldn’t know that from TV.
We need to focus on a new future, with freedom and liberty for all. But we don’t do that by attacking great men like Lee and Jackson who don’t deserve it. Brian’s direction is dedicated to dividing us, not uniting us.
Jackson and Lee aren’t “hooded types”…at least they were brave enough to use their real names.
Don’t give me that “it was about self-determination” garbage. Exactly what is it they wanted to determine for themselves? Slavery. I know.
Why is it that I never see African-Americans waving the Confederate Flag and fighting to preserve the memories of the dear, old South?
Brian:
Then why would Virginians have voted down secession after the deep South seceeded and after Ft. Sumter, then vote for secession after the call to invade southern states?
Look, no question that slavery was the root cause of the war, but individuals made the decision to fight for other reasons.
Oh, by the way, there were blacks who fought for the south. I don’t want to clog up the blog so here is a list of just a handful of them:
James Russell (2)
Free man of color, Cook for Company C, 24th South Carolina Volunteer Infantry
Killed in action at Missionary Ridge on November 25, 1863
Louis Napoleon Nelson (3)
Free man of color, Private, 7th Tennessee Cavalry (under General Forrest).
Fought at Shiloh, Lookout Mountain, Brice’s Crossing, and Vicksburg.
Survived the war.
Charles F. Lutz (4)
Free man of color, Private, Company F, 8th Louisiana Volunteer Infantry
Fought in the Shenandoah Valley (under Stonewall Jackson, Fredricksburg, Chancellorsville, and Gettysburg.
Captured and paroled twice; never betraying the Confederacy.
Survived the War
John Wilson Buckner (5)
Free man of color, Private, 1st South Carolina Artillery
Wounded on July 12, 1863 defending Battery Wagner against the 54th Mass. Infantry.
James Young (6)
Status Unknown, Private, Company K, 29th Alabama Infantry.
Survived the War.
Jean Baptiste Pierre-Auguste (7)
Free man of color, Private, Company I, 29th Louisiana Volunteer Infantry.
Defended Vicksburg, returned home after its fall, then returned to duty during the summer months of 1864 for the rest of the War.
Survived the War.
William Colen Revels (8)
Status unknown, Private, 21st North Carolina Infantry.
Wounded at Winchester and Gettysburg.
Now Brian, to the important issue. I agree with you that slavery is wrong, prejudice against blacks is wrong. But rather than attacking good men like Lee and Jackson, why don’t you attack the bigots who are alive today?
Most will be found north of the Mason-Dixon line and have nothing to do with Lee and Jackson.
I do, but I still think a Virginia Heritage Day is better than Lee-Jackson Day. Of all the great Virginians in our history, why set aside a special day of reverence only for those who fought to break away from America?
Because a man’s life is not measured only by the four years of that war. Lee had a distinguished career in the US Army for decades fighting in external wars and domestically on the frontier. The impact he had after the war, by opposing those who wanted to continue to resist the occupation and reconstruction and encouraging all to pledge allegiance to the US (which many didn’t want to do and his example was significant in changing that position) and getting on with rebuilding the South and the nation.
As I have previously encouraged you to read a biography of Lee, you would see that there aren’t many other greater Virginians. In fact, I would put him in the top five greatest Americans.
If you visit the Capitol there is a statue for a famous individual from each state. Ours is Robert E. Lee.
What a shame his skills were put to such a poor use as to battle for the right to own people of other races.
You haven’t understood a word I have written. What a shame.
I read the address of Robert Rhett to the convention of “slaveholding states” giving the reasons why the South should secede. The word “SLAVE” was used 30 times.
I take that address and what it actually said over what you have written in 2009 about what it really meant.
Since for some reason you object to my 2009 understanding of history (but seem quite comfortable with your own uninformed one) and will only except 19th Century explanations let me quote:
“My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could do it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that.”
– Abraham Lincoln, August 22, 1862
“If slaves will make good soldiers, our whole theory of slavery is wrong.”
–Confederate General Howell Cobb
Lincoln also wrote to Rep. John Gilmer (NC):
“You think slavery is a right and ought to be extended; we think it is wrong and ought to be restricted. For this, neither has any just occasion to be angry with the other.” Dec. 15, 1860.
But what did the south do?
South Carolina moves towards secession and the rest of the south with her.
Why? Because slavery was not to be “extended” into new states and territories.
“States rights” my foot.
Note:
We have Lee-Jackson Day Proclamations from Bob McDonnell and Bill Bolling
forthcoming
Grayson Jennings
Proud descendant of many Confederate soldiers.
Hey Kirwin….how about you?
Kirwin and Hoeft
No Legends ale for ya’ll in the Sons of Confederate cups at the Shad Planking this year.
Seems there were a lot of folks there wearing Confederate History month stickers and drinking from SCV logo cups….
and oh yeah black folks too!
Sorry
JR:
You obviously failed to read my previous posts.
That was my point. South Carolina and the states of the deep south seceeded and the rest DID NOT follow.
Virginia voted against secession, later when they were to be forced to send troops to invade the other states, that was when Virginia seceeded.
so much for your foot.
Mr. or Mrs. Viking,
Your posts mean little or nothing to me for one reason:
You fail to stand behind them with your name.
“Black folks” drink beer?
Well, hush my mouth.
Col. Richard C. Roten, USMC (Ret.)
Mark Brooks, USN 1975-79
Nice to meet you Colonel.
Robert E Lee, and Stonewall Jackson were two of the greatest men in my opinion that this country has ever known . If only more men could be like those two then i dont think we would be in the awful mess that we are in today .
Thomas Jackson taught Sunday school to young black children when it was not an accepted thing to do . Robert E lee to me is what every man should strive to be like., and if we could only come close then we’d be much better for it
I think those that put these fine men down, should do a little research into who they were , and what they stood for . Not with a closed mine from all the liberal teaching they have received in the schools
We give a holiday to a man who was not the person most people are led to believe that he was , that truth will come to light in the year 2027 when those files can be opened and the light of day shined on the facts, and yes I am talking about MLK . While we are at it why dont we look at one of his top men, and learn why he was put in prison here in Virginia . His name was james Bevel he died recently , I hope he rots in a very hot place for the rest of time . So would he be the kind of person we should look up to as an example of a fine man .
I am so tired of having to give up the traditions I have grown up with just so we can appease others . I will never vote for anyone that wishes to destroy these things that are apart of all true Virginians , and not some transplants for other states
Thomas Nichols
Colonel,
I read your posts and stand educated by them. Unfortunately, they do not persuade me to deviate from my position.
Hey, good people can disagree.
Thanks for your contributions to this discussion and your service.
Mr. Nichols,
I appreciate your tolerance and willingness to allow me to pay taxes, vote, contribute to the economy, fight for conservative values, etc.
Of course…I’m some obnoxious transplant who gives nothing to Virginia, eh?
[...] Sign the petition! And, vote in the poll. [...]
“I am so tired of having to give up the traditions I have grown up with just so we can appease others”
Women voting.
Black and white children in the same school.
No “whites only” restaurants.
Wives as property.
Traditions you grew up with aren’t better. They’re just the way things were when you grew up.
Most people improve as they grow up, not insist on being stuck in their childhood.
Brian:
You liberals are really from Venus. I look to traditions like men marrying women, In God We Trust and treating people of all races equally, those are the traditions I grew up with. It is a shame that seems foreign to you Ohioans.
Let us work together for the good traditions of our nation and people. That is the tradition and legacy of Virginians from First Landing to today.
Ok ya’ll have 55 signatures with a lot by anonymous lemmings who just seem to play follow the leader.
Time to box these up and carry to Tim Kaine…..I’m sure you will make quite an impression
WOW 55
Good work!!
It is too bad that BD brings this attack on two honorable men each year. It certainly delights the democrats to see us divided.
I say leave the dead alone. You can honor Ms. Margaret Sanger, I’ll honor Lee and Jackson.
We have many real problems to deal with today, let us get on with those.
As Gandalf told Frodo:
” It is not for us to choose the times in which we live, it is for us to choose how we will use the time given us.”
The problem is, sir, you view this as an attack. I, for one, did not intend that.
The discussion is about expanding who and what we celebrate in Virginia.
I just don’t feel it’s right to exclusively celebrate a day that honors those who fought on the side of the confederacy at the expense of not celebrating other Virginia heroes and traditions.
I’d love to give a day for each Virginia Hero, but that’s just not feasible. So, what’s the harm in honoring them all on one day?
I hope that folks really can start to keep a level head and discuss this like mature adults. It seems a lot of people have decided to let their emotions to get the best of them.
The problem is JR we are looking at this all wrong. Since so many people on the thread who want to use the modern lense of reflection and leverage modern thought on an era long ago, lets trying staing in the present and look at our country today.
Do you support what is going on in Washington? The bailouts? They are doing it right, regardless of what you think? Politicians led the country to War in 1861, not the citizens or public at large. Lincoln demanded service, some draft in NY as some of of the Irish folks got off the boat. Serve or jail I think it was or worse sent back to Ireland. But lets stay in the present; so what you propose here is that because the Congress initiates an action that everyone impacted by such action is then an aligned with it. Sorta like every Muslim in the world is a terrorist right? Same line- everyone who fought for the South was pro-slavery.
In fairness and I respect many here, you do not know Virginia history to well. You are applying things that very well may be true of Alabama or Mississippi for example but not Virginia if you take the time to actuall research the positions of those involved. Even if you take it to heart and those that were in opposition to the War were defeated at the Convention , what were they to do? What did those in our Congress do when we went to War in Iraq which they may have opposed; they voted for it to save face and even later when it went bad they did not walk away from their place or position or even their country did they? You are saying here that the Whigs upon defeat in the Virginia Convention should have packed up, left their homes and property and fled North are you not? If you must use a modern lense than please lets look to current events and how they have played out and then compare it to those in a different era and what their response was to the circumstances.
And many here, including Brian seem to forget that little event called the Washington Peace Conference of 1861 (goggle it please) and who led the effort to avert War. You would be pleased to know it was our home Virginia along with Kentucky and other border areas. Virginia. And yet we lose sight of that we we condem an enitre populace for the actions undertaken in the end by politicians.
I don’t forget. I also don’t ignore all the accomplishments of generations of Virginians so that we can honor two single men who fought for the state’s rights to own other people.
And your rationale for all those who in our Congress who got behind the whole idea of allowing Great Britain undertake its treatment of Northern Ireland in the manner in which they did? Occupation, um I wonder? Yeah right. Sitting on the sidelines and not taking stand based on conviction is so easy in this modern age isn’t it? It is alot easier I guess to attempt to smear reputations of men whom right or wrong demonstrated a higher level of conviction than those blogging in the modern blogosphere I guess.
Alter, funny how you hold opinions you agree with as “taking a stand” and opinions you don’t agree with as “sitting on the sidelines”
[...] Sign the petition! And, vote in the poll. [...]
Mr Nichols,
I came back to Virginia, land of my ancestors, who first got here in the early 1600′s from England.
So I doubt that my opinion is any less worthwhile than yours, even though my families took a 380 year break to get back here.
Instead of all this nativism, which is ugly on its face, we should revel in all of Virginia’s history, good and bad – old and new. If this means being more inclusive concerning a holiday, then so be it. I welcome any changes which will further enlighten people to the facts of the situation.
Unless of course the views like yours are Hypocritical that is. Easy to reflect that modern lense of yours on the past but don’t seem to be willing to apply it readily in the present. Wonder what your view is about Gaza for example or will you wait fifty years or so to reflect on the characters involved and past judgement thorugh a new lense and not the one today. I wonder? Those Generals must be evil and be full of racism for defending what they perceive as their homeland I guess.
(reprinted from another blog)
I believe, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, that this is about more inclusiveness, not less.
It matters not about the Lee Mansion, that he freed his slaves before the war, that Jackson taught slaves in the basement of the church in Lexington. What does matter is perspective. If we fail to include all the heritage in Virginia, we really do a disservice to all of the history of Virginia.
There is arguably more history and heritage to celebrate in Virginia than one war, one man, two men, the entire Confederate effort.
Lots has been said over the last few days about this subject, lots of it alarmist. My favorite is the idea that somehow Christmas will be forever ruined if we do this terrible thing. As someone whom I respect replied, “Then Jesus was in favor of slavery?”. It is a horrible comparison, but not any more horrible or ridiculous than the conflation of Lee-Jackson Day with Christmas and the Easter Bunny.
I suggest we all learn to live together and to love one another, because we really don’t have anyone else. We love those around us mostly from an emotional loyalty.
Let’s not forget that there are others who have no ‘Heritage Day’, and I am not only talking about ancestors of slaves.
The key here is, do we love ourselves enough to be righteous in our beliefs and yet respect others’ as well?
Only time will tell.
Guess what, Alter. That’s what history is!!!!! We get to choose whom we honor in holidays. If what they did doesn’t stand up to the test of time and history, well it sucks to be them.
By your lens, Hitler could be celebrated if only we limit what we choose to see about him.
I don’t think that’s right. I think we betray our judgment of of historical figures if we limit what we judge. Truly great figures will withstand that test.
Alter,
There really isn’t much to reply to there, but if you are calling me a hypocrite, then I recognize that as your opinion.
I am not a hypocrite, but someone who uses logic and reason to discuss an issue.
And yes, all these comments are my opinions, and I stand by them.
Maybe so, Brian but I thinK I can echo from many others here we just have not seen, heard or read your logic or reason….other than that whole Nazi mess I think.
Brian:
You really are a loon! Bringing in Hitler to the discussion. Man it scares me to think you are involved with Republican politics in my city.
No wonder all the blogs supporting you are left wing blogs. You make the liberals and Democrats very happy I am sure.
With the likes of you as a banner contributor to this blog , who refuse to discuss issues calmly with some intellectual accountability but instead use such ill informed derisive comments when you can’t address historical arguments and shout down any reasoned discussions simply by calling anyone who disagrees with your attacks on famous Americans to be KKK racists is incredible; it truly concerns me for the direction of the party.
You apparently don’t listen much, particularly to the people of this blog who have voted overwhelmingly against you in your poll, despite heavy encouragement on several democrat blogs to come over here and vote with you. With this kind of ignorant hatred you express in your comments apparently the norm here at BD, I think I will steer clear of this blog and am now very skeptical of the Republicans in Virginia Beach.
Perhaps the Constitution Party will replace you all here because all I see is you chasing away people of all races and backgrounds.
Its ironic that todays bastion of liberal intellect of Virginia in Alexandria and Arlington now sit on the very grounds where Africans became slaves in Virginia. Thats right folks. The largest Virginia slave auction was conducted right there in the very heart of the present day stronghold of Virginia liberalism. Of course they are very pround of the 80% solution and liberal voter turnout, but I wonder are these folks equally proud of their City/County history. Given they constantly refer to us “downstaters” as having so much to repent how about taking your own poison for a change. Wasn’t Old Town the site of so much indifference and cruelty towards the Africans–what to do? I know remove its history and all the historical markers; we should endeavor to no longer celebrate those places in Virginia history. They, the original oppressors and enslavers of their fellow man, selling off men, women and children—-how we just ignore what we want to ignore that doesn’t fit our little reality of the present.
Your Dryness, I just adore how you “discuss issues calmly with some intellectual accountability” by calling me a loon.
I didn’t call anyone a racist. Wimps who use fake names to hide their lack of manhood on the internet? I call them chicken. But not racists.
But thank you for promising to steer clear of this blog. You’ll double the average IQ of our readership by your pledge.
How many people discussing this topic have read Douglas Freeman’s biography of Robert E. Lee? The former head of the Virginia Historical Society considers it one of the most important books in American History.
Mr . Kirwin
Those where not the reason that Lee and Jackson fought for The Commonwealth of Virginia. Might you do some research before you spew something that you only have a very limited knowledge of . You only show your ignornace of the true facts. . I cant remeber if it was you or not who asked why you do not see any blacks wearing Confederate attire , How about waving the Confederate battle flag . take a look at HK Edgerton a former leader of the naccp in N.C http://www.southernheritage411.com/hkedgerton/hkeg08.shtml. Also may i suggest you might want to read some books on the subject just so you might gain a little knowledge . One book could be The South Was right by james, and Donald Kennedy . You also might want to pick up a book on Lee and Jackson. To find out who these fine gentlemen were , and what they stood for . You know Robert E Lee was offered the command of the entire federal forces , but only chose to go with the South because Virginia chose to leave a union of states that no longer had the Souths interest at heart . Lincoln was asked why not just let the Southern States leave , and his reponse was who would pay for the goverment . the norht could not afford to let the South leave, but the South could afford to leave the union . What good is a form of goverment that must be held together by force . Also there were blacks that owned slaves . Slavery still exist in parts of Africa today . During the election Of before lincoln was elected there was an abolionist canidate who recieved less than 1% of the vote. lincoln also said that he would not risk the union over the issue of slavery . Robert E Lee said that slvery was an evil that would bring the South down. That is an odd thing for a man to say that wants to defend the issue of slavery . Another odd thing is when Mr. Lee was president of Washington college a black man shot a white man . the students of the college found the black man and were going to hang him there was a crowd of over 300 students all worked up over the issue and were willing to take the law into thier own hands . Robert E Lee hearing the commotion came to the area where the black man was to be hung , All he said was to please release this man to the law , and let the law take its course in this matter. So you saying that Robert E Lee defended the instituion of slavery is completely untrue .
Mr. Brooks then why dont we have a national holiday for all Americans that have done great things ,why not have one national holiday to celebrate . Why do we have a national holiday for a black man ? we have already taken Washington’s birthday and combined it into presidents day . why do some business’s no longer celebrate Christmas , but instead celebrate seasons greeetings, or happy holidays as wal mart does , it is because they do not want to ofend anyone that does not celebrate Christmas, so now we have to bend over for those that have come here and are not happy with our holidays , with our traditons . it probaly does not matter because in a short time all our holidays will be replaced . I have been to toher countries and I enjoy the diversity of the holidays that are part of their culture . if i chose to live there I would never expect or to desire to change what they have had as their culture and history
Mr. Kirwin
may i ask how old you are? women voting how long ago was that ?
Mr . JR Hoeft
You missed my point, and that is why do people want to come form some other palce and then want to change the things that are there . If you were so happy where you came from then why did you not just stay ? its like all these from other countries comming here, and then wanting to change our way of life to a way of life they had from where they came from .
The South had a right to succede, and one that was also moral . If the goverment no longer represents the interest of the people it governs , then they have the right to undo that goverment . All the south wanted was a goverment that represented what their interest were . Why could the South not do that ? Why did the north provoke the attack on Fort sumpter ? why did the goverment not honor its agreement and then maybe the forces in S.C would not have attacked , but like most agreements the U.S goverment makes they change to fit their will . How has the U.S. goverment done with treating the American indians . So the U.S goverment is so honorable . I have been to norhtern states, and found them more racist than anything i have seen in the South
“Mr. Kirwin, may i ask how old you are?”
No
You can also stop attacking Mr. Hoeft with your “why didn’t you just stay” garbage.
Mr. Hoeft is here because he was ordered here to defend your life and our country.
As for your quote “Why do we have a national holiday for a black man ?”
I think that speaks volumes about your beliefs.
It just shows your beliefs, and reading ability, I never attacked him . He may be ordered here . i dont know know if that is correct or not, but if he is not willing to be here on his own will then I wish him safe return to whereever it is that he comes from,. he is defending me ? looks like he needs you to defend him, I take it he cant or wont defend himself . So do i need someone like that defending me *LOL* are you serious . As for yourself you wont address the issues you just skate around them . I know the truth about MLK and he is not someone we should have up on a pedistal . Its like back before the War, the people of the north just had push their will on others . Its also telling about you , that the poll is against you , but you wont accept that fact
For another thing , you are not in control of me . So expecting me to do your will is a joke in itself . as in telling me to stop attacking Mr. Hoeft
You’re right. You’re free to be an ass if you like.
Lee-Jackson Day should be returned to January 19 no matter what day of the week it falls on. Martin Lucifer Coon Day should be abolished. No one should be forced to honor that womanizing, plagarising communist negro pedophile. Generals Lee and Jackson were true White Southern heroes worthy of honor in every Confederate State. Coon does not even deserve a town holiday anywhere. White Southern Solidarity!!!
oh my god
It appears that this petition is going to go nowhere, as fully 75% of the voters are opposed to abolishing Lee-Jackson Day. Yet another government-inspired, anti-White measure that has flopped. WHITE SOUTHERN SOLIDARITY!!! FLY THOSE CONFEDERATE BATTLE FLAGS HIGH TOMORROW, BOYS!!!
It’s a shame that what was an intellectual debate has been derailed by Walter Ring.
Brian and J.R., while I disagree with some logical conclusions you have made, I respect your opinions, as I know you respect *most* people opposed to you.
I have only commented once in this comment section, but have thoroughly enjoyed the debate.
Based on the wording of the petition, Mr. Hoeft should also be against the King Holiday as he is against individuals having holidays.
Brian, its people like you who aid the cause of white supremacy more than any actions by a bunch of bedsheet-wearing pecker woods.
Your comparisons and your attempt to demonize and label people based on a narrow-thinking PC stereotype only shows that you have been so versed in their propaganda and are so vocal in it, one might actually conclude you have your own mind, rather than just parroting talking points like the mindless drone that you are.
Those who stand against those struggling to liberate our heritage from the wrong-thinking viewpoint of the oxymoron called “Political Correctness” stand side by side with the very white supremacist racists who themselves MISUSE Confederate symbols here and in Europe. If you are willing to share the same thinking as them (for they too think that our Confederate heritage is theirs) then you are in my mind no better than a Skinhead yourself!
I honor Lee-Jackson day, and I also honor Martin Luther King Day (both Lee and King have birthdays celebrated three days apart). These men are the greatest Southerners in our history. There is room for all at the table of brotherhood…except for those who hold contempt for true Sons and Daughters of the Southland (of all races and religions) and stand with the false prophets of racism and race-baiting.
Walter Ring by the way is just a jerk and a violator of our Southern Confederate historical heritage! His words mean nothing and are not representative of a real Son or Daughter of the Southland!
Why is it that I never see African-Americans waving the Confederate Flag and fighting to preserve the memories of the dear, old South?
Well Brian, obviously you have no idea who HK Edgerton is? How about Nelson Windbush? I suggest you blog the name and prepare to be amazed. Also go to: http://www.southernheritage411.com/ and witness for yourself people of all races who stand up for our Confederate heritage, some of which are members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.
Also you may want to look up facts about Black and Hispanic Confederate soldiers. Just remember its ALL honorable Southerners who respect their Confederate heritage who honor Lee/Jackson day, Confederate Memorial Day, and Confederate Flag Day every year.
You found 2. Amazing! Let’s just tell the hundreds of thousands of African Americans who take great offense at the way you celebrate how they used to be owned that they’re just wrong, and your 2 people are right.
[...] Needless to say, this proposition has not been met with overwhelming favor. [...]
Perhaps I can suggest a book; “Forced into Glory, Lincoln’s White Dream” by Dr. Lerone Bennett Jr. Do you really think the United States Government would lie to protect its own sorted past and crimes against civilians? Like a rug, and has been for 143 years. Lincoln used the “N” word more than a grand Wizard and did not give a damn about the slaves except to use them to win his war, at all costs. And of course there’s this little thing of Lincoln wanting to send all the former slaves and freed men back to the Liberia Colony in Africa, after the war. Gee, I guess somebody forgot to put that in the history books our children are now forced to read. Did everyone forget Lee was Lincoln’s first choice over Little Mac to head the Union Army?
Lee and Jackson were both great men and leaders in their own right. You cannot judge their actions by today’s standards, without all the facts. We live in a very different world today.
Is the truth from our Government too much to ask ,and expect?
I am so very sick of all this politically correct nonsense. It would be funny if it weren’t so dangerous. It is an assault against the rights guaranteed to us by God and elucidated in the Constitution. People cannot express their opinion without being labeled “racist” – a Marxist concept, by the way – and the rights of the majority are being quashed in an attempt to placate a minority that will NEVER be placated. The issue of slavery involves all races – who do you think sold Africans to whites in the first place? – and all sections of the country. The slave trade in this country was run from the Northeast – read your history! Whites were also slaves just as blacks were slave masters. Indeed, the FIRST slave master in the United States was a black man – and a former slave.
Martin Luther King is venerated yet his alleged desire for a “color blind” society in which people were judged by their characters and not their race has been replaced by a standard that is ALL race with damned little character. There’s something WRONG with this picture!
Far too many people parrot “the party line” in total ignorance of historical facts. Of course, it would help if most of our present “historians” actually PRESENTED facts instead of that same “party line”. Between bogus “history” and political correctness, we have become a nation in which ignorant bigots demand that everyone do as THEY want – or else.
Valerie – It is the history of the day itself that is presented as an argument against its existence. To deny the history of the day being a means of shrowding policies of disenfranchisement and hate in the legacies of good men is to white wash history in the other direction.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
There is no need to eliminate “Lee-Jackson” day. It has always been a day to recognize two of the greatest Virginians ever born. I don’t know about you, but every day is Virginia Heritage Day in my home and we like it that way. Generals Robert Edward Lee and Thomas Jonathan Jackson, were our Christian role models as we Virginians grew to manhood and womanhood.
Your obedient servant,
John Henry Taylor
Richmond, Virginia
“Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more. You should never want to do less” Gen. Robert E. Lee
This Brian Kirwin needs to read a history book before shooting off his mouth. BTW Virginia Gov. Kaine has acknowledged Lee Jackson day.. I am proud of the actions of these bold men.
If you would like to see the respect, come to Monument Ave in Richmond Va. this Saturday (9-4). There will be a company of Confederate reinactors at the monuments of Lee and Jackson. You never know, it might inspire some of you to read a book instead of speaking about things you don’t know…
Brian, of course I would try to tell those thousands that their wrong. Their views are based on years of misappropriation and propaganda by the media and by hate groups who have no legal or moral claim to that heritage.
Lets look at exactly what you and them call evil shall we?
Honoring citizen soldiers, volunteers made up of men and boys of all ages, races, religions and national backgrounds who fought in a struggle to establish a true Constitutional Republic .
Recognizing the sacrifices of those men on designated memorial days by laying wreaths and flags on their graves.
Oh wow the forces of evil and intolerance are really HARD at work here…LOL.
You can sight slavery all you want (its true slavery existed in the South, yet all census records of the time say that the institution was dying off and would have been dead by no later than 1880 even without secession. If they did break away solely for slavery and the expansion of slave states powers (They didn’t but lets say they did for the moment to humor your misinformed opinions) then they would have already doomed slavery further. No places to expand slavery if they cut themselves off from American.
You may even go on and site lynchings and the oppression of women also, but remember that stuff happened all over America, and not in disproportionate numbers here in Dixie. So try another one, and I know you will.
You will then try to compare the Confederacy to Nazi Germany, which in itself shows you are a prefect product of what we call our laughable education system. The Confederates were fighting according to their Constitution for the principles of Constitutional self-government and weaker federal control over the internal affairs of the respective States. In contrast, Nazi Germany was a form of radical Socialism called Fascism that brought all control to one political party and one leader who held all power in the name of The People. There simply is no comparison, just another PC talking point shot down by knowledge.
I noticed no comments about your serving white supremacy by your actions here on this forum with your intolerant actions. What say you to that?
Obama’s election is not going to bring peace for whites and blacks in this country. It was obvious that we Confederate Southernors would be faced with a barrage of hate crimes against us.
We will only have peace when the USA Government apologizes and admits Lincoln’s War was evil and a wrong against its neighbors and a takeover for empire building. Until that day, the Lee-Jackson Festival should remain as should all Confederate Symbols, because the Confederate States of America is the embodiment of the intent of the founders of these United States of which Virginia played a big part.
WHEN EUROPEANS WERE SLAVES: RESEARCH SUGGESTS WHITE SLAVERY WAS MUCH MORE COMMON THAN PREVIOUSLY BELIEVED
COLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.
Robert Davis
In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.
,,,,,Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.
Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan).
Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/whtslav.htm
It is long time for a change from what Brian is doing the same old pc thing, using slavery and blacks as a political bootball. Blacks need to ignore those of his ilk and just assimilate into the USA population like all the rest that have come to these shores, and become the best that thewy can be as our founders intended.
It is pertinent and of interest to note that Obama is descended of slave owners from white Maureen Duval, an immigrant to Maryland in the 1600s, and a descendant of Arab slave traders and slave owners. He is 6,25% African.
There should NEVER be anything done to potentially remove the direct memory of any Confederate from the public view and consciousness. Period.
What was done in Selma AL this week in the street renaming should not be put up with by the citizens.
The civil war was about more than slavery, and both Lee and Jackson were great leaders from Virginia. I’m not pro-confederacy. I’m not pro-slavery. I’m not racist. I’m not sexist. I just don’t think that we should be working to sweep the acknowledgement of our history under the rug.
“You found 2. Amazing! Let’s just tell the hundreds of thousands of African Americans who take great offense at the way you celebrate how they used to be owned that they’re just wrong, and your 2 people are right.”
Brian, this is where I take issue with your sentiments. I feel you are missing the point as to why a VAST majority of people celebrate people like General Lee.
Please, read Douglas Freeman’s biography of Lee and you may have a different perspective. All I ask is that you take a moment and just look at all of the facts.
I’ve been reading the comments for the last several days and I will admit I’m not the most educated when it comes to History. But it seems to me that a holiday to celebrate all of Virginia Heritage as opposed to only two men would be a good thing. Lee & Jackson are a part of our heritage so they would be celebrated along with everything & everyone else that has made Virginia such a great state.
Why not celebrate all of it on one day? Can’t it be as simple as that? Many people served our state and gave their lives and having a day to be able to remember all of it instead of only one part of it seems to make sense.
Robert E. Lee and Thomas Jackson were two of history’s most brilliant military commanders who fought honorably to defend their newly established nation, The Confederate States of America, against the aggression of the United States of America. They deserve the respect and admiration of the people of Virginia.
And we wonder why Republicans (ostensibly “conservatives), are getting their brains beat out. We’re always apologizing for our principles, our heroes, and offering “PC lite.”
Here we are facing a party that thinks sucking the brains out of babies is healthcare and puts up Al Franken as one of their standard-bearers and this is the kind of idiocy we offer up to voters as an alternative?
We deserve to lose.
Man up.
I think we should establish a day to ban all congressmen and politicians. These morons haven’t a clue as to what the taxpayer wants and expects. Perhaps they could be required on this day to kiss all of us taxpayers that support them …. because it’s nice TO GET KISSED WHEN WE’RE GETTING SCREWED!
Generals Lee and Jackson are men to emulate and regard to the highest degree, not to worship. Having a day to honor two brave and honarable men that are thought by many to be two of the top 10 generals in American history is not a long shot by any degree. They were also the epitome of what a Southern man should strive to be, no matter the race, creed or color. Many of the above posts have gotten away from the original question, should they be honored. Yes, they should.
apparently you dont know your history. george washington fought for the us and was our leader. we celebrate his birthday. many of our founding fathers fought for our country. its amazing how you people that want to be politically correct want to eradicate history. you should be proud that you , and I do mean Virginia, have so many men who fought and died in all the wars, not only the civil war. you keep taking away icons that mean so much to real americans. you know like taking God out of the schools, and government. what is wrong with you people. The men who died did it so you can sit on your duff and speak your mind and be free. but you now slap them in the face and dishonor them by trying to do away with their names. you should be ashamed to call yourself and american. and i can guarentee that you wouldnt take up arms to fight for this country. it was founded on christianity, live with it and quit trying to teach our young that its okay to change history if you dont like the results. Lies,why dont you teach them the truth. you political people make me sick. martin luther king didnt even fight for america and we have a day for him. i dont whine about it, i just live with it. why dont you do the same and get a life. your a virginian, then act like one. if your not. get out. and if you dont like america…you can get out too. and ps. when you take God out of everything, dont be two faced. make sure you work on Easter and CHRISTmas.
Those who fought for continuing slavery were fighting for freedom.
That’s quite a view of history. Obviously, they weren’t too interested in the freedom of the people they owned. They weren’t rushing out there to fight for the right of women to vote.
Freedom, huh.
Hello Brian Kirwin, you need to put the crack pipe away…. Everything you post is so out there I wonder why you even crawled out from under your slimy rock. You are a waste and definitely part of the reason our country is so F’d up.
I would like to know why my previous post was deleted? Is this website run by the new Obama socialist party or what. All of you liberal, socialists
that want to censor everything except what you want to hear make me sick.
GOD BLESS THE CONFEDERATE STATES OF AMERICA…… If they had only won the war. This place would be so much better for all humans.
You Virginians can come support the honor guard at the Lee and Jackson statues on Monument Ave Tomorrow between 9-4… It will be cold as balls yet we will be there.. Don’t talk the talk without supporting the it…. We will love to see you there.. I would expect the proponents to get out and support…. It is better than quoting history…. It is living history..
Had the Northern states not voted against the measures proposed By Gen. Lee and the Virginia delegates (as well as other Southern Delegates) the end of the importation would have been in 1800. The North, by voting it down, added another 8 years and approximately 3-400,000 new slaves imported into America. It was their income. The NORT controlled the slave trade, and through taxes and tarriffs, virtually guaranteed the continuation of it. NO IT WAS NOT RIGHT, but it was accepted. I think that we probably should ban the Dutch, Spanish, and English flags as well as the battle flag. They were the prime movers and shakers in the trade. Revisionist history is not history at all, but a fiction devised to make one feel superior and the other apologetic. Liberia was mentioned earlier. It was purchased primarily from Southern funds. Mrs. Lee’s family were involved in that relocation program (which Lincoln liked).
The slaves, however, did not want to leave. Their education was being addressed despite laws requiring them to remain ignorant. Southerners recognized that it was necessary for them to be free and independant. “The Impending Crisis”, a veritable how to book for terrorism by the slaves to rise up and kill white Southerners so the North only had to walk in and take over was a cause for these knee jerk laws. Please read the books on Gen. Lee and Gen. Jackson. Then, read about Mrs. Lee. Also for your consideration, “the Southern View of Slavery”. You will find a great deal of then current, albeit wrong, sentiments about the blacks, but you won’t find anger, ire, contempt or a myriad of other negative sentiments. You will mostly find sympathy and realizations that these oppressed people needed freedom. We have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. They only saw them as an ignorant people incapable of making their own way. Now, all that being said, I do NOT believe that slavery was the main cause of the war. It was ONE of the main causes, but money and power, the evil twins, were at the heart of it all. Thank you for your time.
Clay (as in “feet of”), I don’t know what happened to your comment. No one deletes them. It’s too funny when normal human beings read your stuff to ever delete them.
You seem to be an expert on crack pipes and slimy rocks. You must have married up.
You know Brian you are a funny guy, a person completely refutes your point and you resort to character attack, Im sure your mom is proud of you.
I didn’t bring up crack pipes first. I just return what’s been given to me, in a much more entertaining way.
And I’m sure my mom is proud of me, though not half as proud as yours
Mines dead.
You know, the saddest thing is you are a bigger bigot than any member of the KKK and you are as much on their side as the worse skinhead when you attack Southern Heritage, and the sad part is you truly believe that removing it will somehow erase some non-existent guilt you feel. I feel sorry for you.
Does it please you to place an ordinary Southern man or woman who honors Lee and Jackson with the same label as a racist, despite not really knowing anything about their feelings?
Are you pleased to stand with people who perpetuate a wrong-thinking view of things because they choose only to dwell on negative and the sensational misuse of that heritage by sordid individuals?
Do you have any desire for real tolerance and a real moving forward? The only way to do that is to be truly inclusive. Southern Confederate heritage is a much American and Black heritage.
Its about men who died fighting for self-determination. Not about politicians who wanted to save the union, or preserve slavery, or States Rights itself? Its about a common man who fought to save his home from what he saw as an invasion. Who bleed, suffered prison camps, who starved and who eventually choose to surrender, though that loss did not stain the honor of their virtue and valor.
When I fly a Confederate flag on Lee/Jackson day or Confederate memorial day, I don’t do it because I hate, far from it. I honor men of all races and religions who died for the South.
If I meet a man, like you, black or white, who says that they hate me for it, I just try to explain that I don’t honor being a descendant of one of those men because I want to hold on to some nostalgic past I know can’t return. I would try to convince them that most other Southerners who do the same also don’t do it for hate.
To me Heritage Not Hate is not some codeword for “Kill all N—–” its what it says it is. Its about being proud, of honoring your kin and where you come from.
For most of my life I hated who I was, I was just like you…but when I heard the stories and talked to others, of all colors and creeds, who believed in Southern Heritage, I learned not to be ashamed of being Southern. Sure there is a lot of things in the past of the South and American that is bad, but that does not fully taint the good qualities.
I don’t say to forget the bad, but not to let the bad rule us and define us. We can move forward, the Old South and the New South and find the attributes of both that can make us a whole, proud Southern people.
I know as long as I live I will always have to fight ignorance from the Left, and the white supremacist garbage that wants to claim my heritage for its own. And I will never surrender who I am, and what I honor, nor taint my heritage by bowing to either of them.
That’s who I am, dude. If you want to pass judgment on me, judge be by that…and we will let God and History determine who is right.
“Does it please you to place an ordinary Southern man or woman who honors Lee and Jackson with the same label as a racist, despite not really knowing anything about their feelings?”
Does it please you to call me a bigot despite not really knowing anything about my feelings.
You’ll really do much better in these debates if you avoid doing what you criticize others of doing.
I understand your appreciation for heritage, but why does your passion stop at confederate heritage? Why not fly the flag of Great Britain while you’re at it. Unless you’re of Native American descent, you have a country of origin in your history. Where’s that flag?
See, for every person like you that is just “honoring their kin,” there is a person whose “kin” from that time meant chains, whips and ownership against their will. And they don’t share your view about how honorable those days were.
Every time a white man waves that flag and honors those who fought to preserve that state right to own slaves, someone is reminded that America was not the land of the free for them until after those who waved that flag were defeated.
If you can’t understand that, then the only thing left to say is that there are fewer and fewer of those who insist on that, and many more who are willing to drop that evil part of our history and not dwell on it.
GOOD LORD, YOU DO NEED A HISTORY LESSON…OR TWO. THE SOUTH DIDNT FIGHT TO CONTINUE SLAVERY…READ A BOOK OR TWO…. THEY FOUGHT BECAUSE THEY WERE BEING INVADED AND WANTED TO BE FREE FROM THE STATES THAT WERE POLITICALLY SQUEEZING THE LIFE OUT OF US. MAN, YOU PEOPLE REALLY ARE OUT THERE…I BET YOU DONT EVEN READ….YOU JUST FORM OPPINIONS BASED ON NOTHING BUT RUMORS. GET AN EDUCATION.
Actually, for your information, I do honor those who fought for Britain (even the tories who died, for they too were Americans just following their loyalties, just like Union and Confederate soldiers).
I love only about 30 miles away from a place called Kings Mountain, where in October of 1780 several hundred Loyalists and Patriots fought and died. I visit the grave of the British officer buried there and place a Union Jack on his grave as surely as I place a Betsy Ross on the graves of the Patriot guys who died there.
I likewise support making monuments to them because I respect veterans and people who fought and died for their beliefs. Those Brits and Tories were just men fighting to maintain their empire and felt that they were all English. I may not have approved of their cause, but I honor them.
I would likewise honor the men of the Mexican army under Santa Anna who fought to preserve their land in the Mexican War. Again I respect people who fought and died for what they honored and who fought honorably for it.
I guess your next attack will have to do with do I honor Nazi soldiers and believe if Germans should honor it? My answer being that we are not in Germany and what they do there is not my concern. This is America and we are discussing those who fought wars on American soil. So don’t bother with asking. Any more liberal talking points you care to throw my way, or do you concede my point?
“THE SOUTH DIDNT FIGHT TO CONTINUE SLAVERY”
Uh huh. They secretly opposed slavery all along.
Carl, I can respect that. At least you’re consistent, and you seem heartfelt and honest in your reverence. I don’t agree with you, but I can respect your feelings.
I don’t get that from most of the other commenters here.
Most of them are angry, I agree with their anger but not their approach. I try not to make personal enemies. Its better to convince people through rationality than through name-calling. Or so I always believed.
If they want an all Virginian day then so be it, . but lets not end the two greatest Virginians of all . If they the liberals want it so bad then let them have a day that s seperate . Uhmmm seems the poll is agianst the liberals well imagine that
Thomas Nichols
why dont we have an all American day , and leave out MLK, because he was American as a day all to himself
Bill Kirwin, i figure that you must be black . or one thing Virginia wanted to end the importation of slaves , but it was the northern states rejected that idea, I wonder why that was Bill ? Not one slave was brought into America under the Confederate flag / If you want a goverment to be against then you should be against the U.S goverment they were the ones that allowed slaves to be brought into this country . Please remember that only 6 % of the people takin from africa actually came to the U.S.Who sold them into slavery Bill ? what part of the country brought them here Bill ? where did 80% of the africans go Bill ?Why dont you know anything about the truth Bill ? is it because you are a racist idiot Bill ?
Thomas Nichols
Richmond times dispatch . you know nothing about what you speak . I will cancell subscription , I see that you dont even sign who wrote that column , maybe because you are cowards hiding behind polictical correctness . Give me one real reason why Lee’s birthday should not be observed ?Mcdonnell you will never get my vote, or my support in dollars . You are a disgrace to anything that is Virginia . I will offer to help pay a one ticket out of Virginia for your carpet bagging ass
Thomas Nichols
How about we ask black people what they think http://www.geocities.com/tnudc/EDGERTON.jpg . how about Southern Heritage.com … http://www.sipoftexas.org/hkedgerton.php. How many more do I need to post ?
I want to wish Gen. Robert E Lee a Happy Birthday , and always remember that no matter how dark the night , it cant extinguish the light
“Bill Kirwin, i figure that you must be black .”
And people wonder why it’s so easy to laugh at Confederaphiles.
Okay there you go again Brian, using names.
You suffer from your own Confederphobia based on nothing more than historical inadequacies and the idea that because a bunch of racist scum misuse it and another group of people (who wrongly claim to represent the express beliefs of all African-Americans) claim they are offended all because they buy into said wrongful views.
As I said before, you are either on the side of decent Sons and Daughters of the South (ALL SOUTHERNERS, WHITE, BLACK, HISPANIC, JEWISH, CHRISTIAN) who honor the part of our Confederate heritage that mean the best of American civilization….Or you are on the narrow-minded side of those who view it as a racist throwback (and by extension, stand beside the same racist throwbacks in white sheets who share that viewpoint).
Honorable Southerners do not hate anyone. They honor the inclusive brotherly love of Jesus Christ. We who honor Confederate heroes and fly their flag do not do so because we want to return to the days where people were whipped (Incidentally, accusing 4 years of American history on an institution that spanned a couple hundred in North America as a whole is stretching it a bit), or the days where women couldn’t vote, or the days where segregation exists.
All we want is our right to honor our ancestors in our own way. We want society as a whole to recognize that doing so is not a deviant act of “soft bigotry”. We want the flag of our ancestors to fly, not because we want to break away from the United States, but because it represents a distinct American people, a multicultural group of American people who live in our own distinct region (Canada allows French Canadians to have a French symbols on the flag of Quebec. Scotland is allowed to have its own distinct St. Andrews cross and is still a part of Great Britain. Palestine isn’t even a country and its allowed to have a flag separate from Israel to represent its own people).
We want nothing more than that, and to be respected. Treat us with respect and you will get respect back. But keep calling us name and mocking us and I promise you we can give back as good as we get!
There has been a lot of talk here about “what the war was about”…
Let’s check that out (…and place close attention Brian):
“The shrewd men of the North are fully aware…and no doubt have already made a calculation of the profit and loss which will inure to them by a dissolution of the Union. They cannot but foresee a very large dimunition, if not an entire loss, of their Southern trade.”
Cincinnati Daily Enquirer, 28 December 1860
*
“…in the event of a permanent dissolution of the Union….Our commerce, whether inland or international, will suffer an almost total eclipse….The adoption by the Southern Republic of a system of free trade, or a low rate of tariff duties, will alone suffice to consummate these ends. Upon equal terms it will be difficult if not impossible to compete with the labor of Europe in the Southern market. It is only by the very large percentage in our favor furnished by our tariff, that we so far have competed successfully. When that advantage is removed, and we are left to compete on equal terms, it requires no sagacity to perceive that we shall be driven from the Southern markets with our manufactures; and our commercial and transporting interest dependent on that trade will perish also.
These things in themselves will deal a terrible blow to our prosperity; but they furnish not even one-half of the difficulties and disasters which await us. By the system of free trade, the Confederate States not only cut off our Southern trade and market, but they utterly derange our business relations at our own doors and with foreign nations…”
The Racine Democrat, 3 April 1861
*
“The Union of the States, we fear, is permanently severed. The separation is peaceable in form, but hostile in fact. The Confederate States have adopted a nominal tariff, preparatory no doubt, to the speedy establishment of free trade. This policy is designed to overthrow the commercial and manufacturing interests of the North, and it will prove a heavy and fatal blow to their prosperity and their existence.”
Cedar Valley Times (Cedar Rapids, Iowa), 4 April 1861
*
“It is at this juncture of things that the ‘money power’ of the North interposes…not to propose compromise of any kind, but casting its weight in the scales on the side of the ‘anti-slavery’ Government at Washington, it hopes to crush the South into submission, and compelling it to resume its former relations with the North, to thus restore the Southern trade to this city.”
New York Day Book, 22 May 1861
*
“The men of Pennsylvania and Massachusetts cared as a rule very little about the ‘domestic institutions’ of the South until this war broke out. The merchants of New York were bitter partisans of slavery. But the ironmasters of Pennsylvania and the manufacturers of New England have taxed the South for their benefit so long that they cannot bear the thought of losing the power of doing so for the future. The brokers of the Empire City are furious at the prospect of seeing their lucrative trade diverted to Charleston or New Orleans, and carried on with English capital. The lust of money has had ten times more to do with the sudden patriotism of the North than their love of liberty.”
London Morning Herald, 1861
*
“To keep this Northern division of the continent as the field for millions of the white race to claim their natural birthright in, and exercise their energies and their talents for their own advantage and the general prosperity, it is essential that but one Government shall exercise authority from the Gulf of Mexico to Canada, and from the Atlantic to the Pacific. What would this country be, broken up into pieces, and divided into different confederacies, with rival interests, and rival institutions? How could the enterprise and industry of the free North develope itself with another and rival government, based on principles so entirely opposite to free labor, limiting its expansion southwardly, and holding three-fourths of the line of the sea coast of the country in its own possession?….
To be cut off at one blow from this privilege, and to be deprived of the freedom of the coasting trade, would be ruinous to our commercial interests, and crippling to every other pursuit on which our prosperity is founded.”
Philadelphia Public Ledger, 7 June 1861
*
“…one of the principal reasons why the North is so resolved upon the continued vigorous prosecution of the war, is that her people now know by experience the inestimable value to them of the Southern trade….The mercantile marts of New England and the Middle States will be hopelessly ruined. Nothing can possibly save them except the recovery of that magnificent trade….the people of the North think their only chance of getting back Southern trade–or making our country evermore tributary to their growth and aggrandizement, is to conquer us, hold us as subject provinces, and compel us to resume the former channels of mercantile communication. They freely acknowledge that the war injures them terribly…”
New Orleans Bee, 21 September 1861
…Yes, yes, I know what the war was about…
http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/lees%20slave.htm
So is this whom we should praise http://targetfreedom.typepad.com/targetfreedom/2009/01/martin-luther-king-.html
Well, I see there is no shortage of government-educated, pc-minded, historically-challenged folks like Brian around.
Yes, Brian, the South seceded from the Union, and for essentially the same reasons that the Colonists seceded from Britain: they sought independence from an oppressive government, and a tyrannical dictator.
I suppose you would consider Washington, Jefferson, and those who advocated breaking from British domination “traitors”?
Your opinion is common, but quite the opposite of truth.
Wow…another “brave” anonymous commenter attacking me. How’s your hood?
All private school here, dimwit.
I never knew that we fought a revolution against England so we could own slaves. I learn SO much!
Hey never too late to learn something new Brian.
Brian-
Usually disagree with you. But you’ve done an excellent job defending your position. Seriously, it’s 10 against 1 and you’ve held your own. I shall never underestimate your debating skills.
I’ve got to stop before my liberal chip blows up.
Actually, Brian, There were “slaves” who fought against England, too. Funny how that happens when people become family regardless fo their “legal” status.
Arlen, there were bald men who fought against England. Does that mean that we fought a Revolution for baldness rights?
I was born and raised in Virginia. I now live in Tennessee. But, my family and entire past is in Virginia. Lee-Jackson day is one of the last things in the south that has survived the onslaught to remove any memory of the “old south”. Does it honestly hurt having a few flags walked down through Richmond and Lexington once a year? Does it hurt having a few speaches and dinners throughout the state once a year? I am sure the state employees like the day off.
There are VERY few things left in our world that you can grab onto and hold that are solid…and family history and heritage are a couple of them.
Sticking a few little battle flags on fallen family soldier from the Civil War on graves, and a small parade in a few towns give a select group of people a day of getting together to chat and talk history….maybe we need a little more of it. Yes, you cannot go forward until you look back.
It usually all comes back to slavery. A couple VERY simple things to say. Slavery was around WAYYYYYY before the Civil War, Lee, Jackson, and the Battle Flag. If anyone wants to throw slavery into the mix, go after the U.S. Flag, it was flying over all the state capitols when slavery was in force. Also…a lot of times, rival tribes actually captured and sold their own country men and women (Africans), to slave traders, so if anyone wants to point fingers or think about who is in fault, might try looking at the source. Yes, sloavery was wrong, no man should be property of another, but it happened, the war was won, slavery was abolished. End of story. Lee-Jackson day is for remembering Virginia soldiers and home state generals that fought for what they believed in…”DEFENDING THEIR STATE AGAINST AN AGRESSOR”…mainly the US Goverment that sent troups into Virginia to attack the more southern cotton states.
Leave the Lee-Jackson day alone…
Wow…Lee-Jackson Day is winning the poll by an 89 to 9 margin.
The Petition has been up for several days with only 80 signatures (and some of those appear to be rather sarcastic in tone- “Scal A. Wag”).
Y’all ready to throw in the towel?
More on “what the war was about”-
“The surest way to secure peace, is to show your ability to maintain your rights. The principles and position of the present administration of the United States—the republican party—present some puzzling questions. While it is a fixed principle with them never to allow the increase of a foot of slave territory, they seem to be equally determined not to part with an inch ‘of the accursed soil.’ Notwithstanding their clamor against the institution, they seemed to be equally opposed to getting more, or letting go what they have got. They were ready to fight on the accession of Texas, and are equally ready to fight now on her secession. Why is this? How can this strange paradox be accounted for? There seems to be but one rational solution—and that is, notwithstanding their professions of humanity, they are disinclined to give up the benefits they derive from slave labor. Their philanthropy yields to their interest.The idea of enforcing the laws, has but one object, and that is a collection of the taxes, raised by slave labor to swell the fund necessary to meet their heavy appropriations. The spoils is what they are after—though they come from the labor of the slave…”
Alexander Stephens, 21 March 1861
“I have not stated the wealth of the North, but it is not my purpose to detract from it. They were a people of wealth. Most of it, however, came from their connection and trade with us. They were an ingenious and manufacturing people. We are an agricultural people. Their interests and ours were blended together. Our prosperity enabled them to become prosperous, and their States grew up by our trade and commerce. Most of their wealth, when you come to estimate it, was nothing but profits derived from our trade. Cut off that trade….Close up the harbor; cut off manufactures. What does it consist in? Bricks and mortar–nothing else….It will disappear: for the bricks and mortar will be worth no more, unless there are tenants and the profits derived from labor, than the bricks and mortar in the arid plains of Babylon.
Sixty-one millions of New-England capital consisted alone in cotton manufactures and cotton spindles. These factories look to us for our raw materials. This capital is now literally paralyzed; it is dead capital; and will be as long as this war lasts….
The great difference between the North and the South to carry on the war –and this I say to you in prospect of a long war, for I wish our people to see the full magnitude and to feel the full responsibility which rests upon us in it, and to see our responsibility to meet it– is this: The North sold us some two hundred and fifty millions annually. This was their riches; hence came their wealth; hence grew their cities. Their wealth was but the accumulation deposited from our commerce, just as the delta of the Nile was enriched by the the deposit of rich alluvial soil brought from the mountains and deposited in it. The riches, money and power of the North came in the same way. Our cotton was the source of it…”
Alexander Stephens, 11 July 1861
Thanks to folks like you, BR, we’re in this for the long haul. Thanks for motivating us!
Just to show you how completely out of touch this Kirwin individual (and his ilk) is with every day Americans, not only am I completely opposed to ending Lee-Jackson Day, but I voted for Barack Obama!
Liberal…..
It amazes me what people find to cry about .There was just a talk on TV about no more silent time in public schools (its not good enough for these morons that the kids cant have a bible in school, mention GODS name or pray because it might offend somebody) Now they want to do away with Lee Jackson Day (or change the name of the day to disrespect these two great men of GOD and my heritage) Robert E Lee graduated from West point at the top of his class. He was ask to lead the Union Army against the South. But He came home (not to fight for slavery) put to defend His Mother State VA. Both of these men were well respected by the Northern Generals for their leadership and Godly character. YOU need a true .history lesson. Leave our heritage alone.
Let’s have another poll. Should we tear down the Monuments on Monument Ave? Next should VMI tear down the statues of Jackson and Smith on Post? After all Smith oversaw the execution of John Brown that certainly cant be tolerted. And wait, let tear down the Washington Monument too, he owned slaves, that clearly cant be tolerated. While we are at it let’s burn the American flag and the Constitution because it allowed slavery until 1863. And on and on….
Stonewall,
Thanks for commenting on a poll that is over two years old. Welcome to the party.
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