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JR Hoeft

Conservative to the core; liberal with his opinion! J.R. has been involved in politics for over a decade and has worked on several campaigns in Hampton Roads. He has served on the Executive Committee of the Republican Party of Chesapeake and the Central Committee of the Republican Party of Virginia. He is also the director of “Blogs United” in Virginia. E-mail J.R.. Follow J.R. on Twitter.

Comments

14 Responses to "“The Dark Knight” and the Joker as religious metaphors. July 20, 2008."

1. 

   Ashton July 20, 2008 22:24 pm

   Hey J.R.,

   I read a lot of blogs, but don’t like commenting; but I find this an interesting thing. I would tell you first that I saw the Dark Knight at the Thursday night showing. The pastor appears to have an interesting point, but the purpose of the movie is the epic movie about good and evil. The Joker reflects the chaos can be caused and I don’t believe that the makers of the movie were trying to romanticize his actions. If you look at the 1989 movie, the Joker was a romantic figure that people loved. It is even difficult to write about here because the Joker, Batman and everyone are very complex characters in the movie.

   The Joker in this movie finds it funny to hurt people, ruin lives and finds humor in suffering. But it’s not so cut and dry as a biblical reference. I don’t think the people who like the Joker would have left the movie saying “yeah! I want to be the Joker”. Let us not confuse ourselves, he is a villain and people certainly love to hate him, as opposed to the Nicholson Joker (they are very different characters.

   I think a lot of the rave comes from the praise of Heath Ledger’s performance (I find it to be the best I’ve seen in a long, long time). To be sure, you’re rooting for Batman in the end. But if we were to accept the premise that the pastor states, then it would also reflect on the Norman Bates, Hannibal Lectures etc etc.. We must remember that The Dark Knight is fiction, and an adaptation from something written 50+ years ago. I don’t think it’s fair to try and compare it biblically (though I like his analogy).

   I would not call the Joker’s actions in this movie “meaningless”. There is definitely a goal the Joker is trying to reach (which I won’t reveal here), but it is very evident. If and when the good pastor would go see the movie, his sermon will be very different though.

   Great movie, I HIGHLY recommend going to see it. Great action, good meaning and will leave you wanting more.

   cheers!

2. 

   The Squeaky Wheel July 20, 2008 23:22 pm

   Or it could just be a kick ass movie truer to the original Dark Knight comic… nah.

   

3. 

   J.R. July 21, 2008 11:19 am

   Ashton,
   I appreciate your comment and wish you would more. There are some who comment here frequently who are not nearly as thoughtful and lend very little to the conversation.

   I would ask that you listen to the podcast again, because I think there were some misconceptions.

   First, pastor is comparing the Joker to the devil and how the devil effectively feels that human life is irrelevant or is here to serve his own purposes. I think that fits very nicely with how I have heard Ledger’s “Joker” being characterized.

   Second, pastor didn’t call the Joker’s actions meaningless, he said that the devil believes that human life is meaningless and attempts to deceive us into thinking that it is, when in fact, Jesus, has conquered that line of thinking through his death and resurrection.

   Jesus’ conquering of the devil was not a joke in the sense that it takes away any thoughts of our lives being meaningless and gives us a real sense of purpose.

   I plan on seeing the movie Tuesday and am really looking forward to it.

   I still think the metaphor works. Good v. Evil has been an on-going source for fiction, art, literature and the human experience since, well, the beginning! This is just another way it’s been depicted, and it offered an excellent avenue for pastor to preach the glory of Jesus Christ.

4. 

   Duck July 21, 2008 13:05 pm

   Let me qualify my response. I am an avid comic collector, a Batman fanatic and a Christian. I believe as Stan Lee has said that comic books are our modern day myths.

   Batman is without a doubt a Jesus figure. He is greatly misunderstood, he values human life and he is willing to sacrifice his life for others. Bruce Wayne gave up a “normal life” to fight crime as the Batman. The tragedy of Bruce Wayne is he does not have a life, he plays at being a playboy billionaire to protect his real identify. And Batman risks his life every night to protect his people.

   The Joker is without a doubt a picture of Satan. He is a deceiver. He wins people to his cause through fear and psychological manipulation. He says whatever he needs to say to get someone to do what he wants.

   Joker, an agent of Chaos (not to be confused with KAOS, different movie), has a plan with is not immediately apparent, and all of his apparently random actions work toward implementing that plan. The Joker encourages us to be selfish and to give in to our baser desires. If that is not a picture of Satan, I don’t know what is.

   What is great about Ledger’s performance—while great, I don’t think it lives up to the hype—is he shows how stupid we are when we act selfishly. But like real life, we often don’t realize until it is too late what the consequences of our ill advised actions are.

   I believe comic book artists and now Hollywood did base Ledger’s Joker on Satan. The Bible and ancient myths are deep in meaning. Any writer who ignores the Bible and/or ancient myths is poorer for his/her refusal to mine these sources for great themes/ideas.

5. 

   Dan July 22, 2008 03:19 am

   I think Batman represents President Bush. The joker and his mob represent terrorists. The cast is full of dems and republicans. The world is full of tragedy and collateral damage. Though some people are inherantly bad, most are basically good, many or most dont understand or appreciate the war against terror. Consequently, the war on terror is going to last a long time

6. 

   Duck July 28, 2008 12:39 pm

   J.R.

   Let us know what you thought of “Dark Knight.”

7. 

   DCH August 1, 2008 10:31 am

   fascinating, JR — I am looking forward to seeing the movie myself. It’s getting great reviews from everyone – including my friends who have seen it.

8. 

   rippleyaliens August 28, 2008 14:34 pm

   Well kinda hard to put a religious tone to this movie. Both Batman, and the Joker, Normal people, who at one time in their life, got pushed just a littllee too far. Batman’s Parents, Jokers, well whatever.
   It has me thinking, on what in Jokers past, happened, to push him over the edge like that. Myself, i have a serious life altering disease.. Not fatal, but Devestating.. I see life Totally different now. There are People in this day and age, like the Joker. Teh guy who was just sentenced to death for the multi murders, and he just smiles at sentencing… Sadam Heusein (spelling).. Veryyy evil man.. No one is born like that.
   Jesus/Satan. Are just labels, just as
   Sheep, Sheep Dogs, and Wolves (google that)..
   This movie, hit all the right switches.. From Good/Evil.. From Sheep/Sheep Dogs/Wolves, to just the plain- We all have the dark side in us, just sometimes, all it needs is a little push..

   A Pastor, Christian, Holy man,, can be broken, if someone really wanted to. Imagine a Pastor, with his Wife and Kids, Brutally Killed, left for dead himself, only to see the killer get set free, based on technicalities..
   1- Self doubt kicks in
   2- Religious doubt
   3- Law doubt
   4- Why was i spared thoughts…
   5- Emotion for revenge

9. 

   Chad September 19, 2008 09:48 am

   Actually it crossed my mind that Nolan’s Joker (intentionally or not) is Satan himself. One could view his perfect execution of a bank robbery, and his perfectly planned escape from jail as just typical “only in the movies” stuff.

   One could also see it as having a supernatural quality.

   But the most Satanic thing about the Joker is the interrogation scene. He tells Batman “You’re not one of them… to them you’re just a freak, like me. They need you now… but when they don’t, they’ll cast you out… like a leper. Their morals, their code… it’s a bad joke.”

   Kind of like the voice of the Devil, trying to make a person doubt his faith.

10. 

    Chad September 19, 2008 11:53 am

    It’s also freaky how The Joker manages to cheat death… a motorcycle racing toward him barely misses him… he gives Dent a gun to kill him with, but the flip of a coin decides that he lives… he falls from a high precipice, but is “saved” by Batman.

    I’ll have to watch it again, but it doesn’t appear as though Joker bleeds when Batman is beeting the crap out of him.

    The there’s Gordon who says they have “nothing… no matches on prints, DNA, custom clothing…”

    Someone with the Joker’s skill would certainly have a criminal record, or so it would seem……

    It begs the question- did he come straight from hell?

    Just random thoughts!

11. 

    stacey September 5, 2009 00:46 am

    Part 1:
    I had my own ideas about what this movie meant to me as I have processed through my own issues. The first time I saw the movie there was so much excitement and special effects that I didnt really think about the meaning save the old good vs. evil but then a year later, I began a process of self introspection and realized that when I stayed in my head I found myself judging my thoughts, the good ones, the bad ones and found that in itself set me up to be in a frustrating place. I have come to believe that we are all good and evil wrapped up into a human with a soul and the gift of free will who then has the opportunity to LEARN about who we ARE by sometimes experiencing who we are NOT.( the bad choices, naturally followed by the consequences and hopefully learning, forgiveness and progress forward with better choices.) If we can do this enough Without judgement, (as I believe that judgement only continues the process until we can stand in the middle seeing both sides, and not Judging, REACTING,) then we are Creating more opportunities to instead of coming from the mind (reactivity, judgement and the polarities there within, .. right wrong black white. etc ) and coming from the HEART. so where am I going with all this. Well I am just a regular person with my own way of seeing things. here it goes … Batman, obviously the hero the person who saves us. He has taken it upon himself to live in the shadows because if we see him for who he is, ( a regular guy) the mystery is no longer, and we may have to realize that we have the same basic abilities that he has , save lots of money to develop neet weapons and cars and such and a hatred for evildoing (reaction). which gets him in hot water because the joker wants to expose him. If he came out in the open It wouldnt matter if he was exposed …

12. 

    stacey September 5, 2009 01:16 am

    so there lies the jokers power. Its like when we make an absolute statement about “WHO WE ARE” I am this… I never…. and so on, its like the universe has what I call the “oh really? police” whose job it is to call us on our stuff and “test ” those statements. ( EVER NOTICE how that happens?) So I see the Joker NOW as NOT the DEVIL or Evil incarnate although he does act evil at times, but instead as the “Devils Advocate” Pushing buttons, getting reactions, showing us our twisted ways of thinking about our “safety” and protection keeping the public reacting in a survival mode . I even laughed ashe states the TRUTH about how we’ve been programmed… something like ” I love chaos, I have no rules, but everyone else loves rules, everybody loves it when everything goes ACCORDING TO PLAN.. EVEN IF ITS AN ATROCITY… BUT ONE LITTLE PERSON DIES AND IT WASNT PLANNED… OH BOY nobody likes that. hnmm sound like … the COMING PLAGUE!!! Interesting. Anyway , notice how commissioner Gordon “walks the middle path” you just dont see him REACT too much, as a matter of fact he even plays the game.. BY NOT PLAYING! ( WELL PLAYING DEAD) BUT .. HE COMES BACK FROM THE DEAD!!! Anyway then the D.A. who is Mr. Good Guy gets tested by the Joker,,, after all, we ALL have the potential to be bad… theres got to be some in there… somewhere…SURE ENOUGH. Another absolute statement about self knocked down a few notches. I know I am leaving out a few people, ok the girlfriend, … loves the batman, loves the hero but wants stablity…. hero’s are always there for EVERYONE ELSE.. what a drag. Ok so I loved the ferry experiment. a lesson is shifting from head (reaction) to heart. Think about it when he asks Joker ” why do you want to kill me?” and he replies laughing ” I dont want to KILL YOU , You are (basically) what completes me, Therein lies the polarity of judgement and results of if. the end…. The hero takes the fall because really by being who he is , that is why it all happened. But commissioner Gordon realizes that its important that it happens this way because as he says ” He’s not the hero that we want, He’s the hero that we need.” to me that means .. he’s the hero we need because he is now empowering us to realize that we can do it ourself. that we depended on him too much, in a needy way and look what happeded … people became more interested in their own asses, what they had to gain, and now its important that we all take responsibility for ourselves. We can work together with reason and compassion ( like the people in the ferry boats) and weather the storm, .. Peace will prevail and we will be so proud of ourselves when we act with dignity and faith in each other. heart AND mind . Not just MIND . Batman disappeared and the wings in the sky no longer shined…. Instead we each got our own. thank you for taking the time to read this. I hope it inspires you to look at yourself with less judgement and to understand how easy life gets when you can shift to the heart . or even united the two with the heart as the Force and the Effect of higher principles operating in your life.
    Stacey

13. 

    Kam October 12, 2009 07:45 am

    I think that the movie dark knight has very deep meaning. It tells you all the techniques and tactics to create anarchy in a country or society. It not only deals with anarchy but tells us about financial wars as well. For example remember the scene when the ‘chinese’ accountant was put on pile of dollars and then joker burn the dolars. Now come to the real world I tell you how this metaphor relates with china. China gave billions of dollars in loan to USA not only that contributed heavily to the G20 forum, question is why? The answer is that due to current financial disturbances if the US bail out fails(which is partially funded by china) dollar will collapse and china has huge reserves of dollars which may turn into plain paper if it happens and the whole chinese economy will melt into the air. So it is in the interest of china to fund US. So burning of dollars by the joker is actually a warning to china that the dollars they have actually are just pieces of paper unless china complies. Similarly the movie also relates to the act of terrorism, where the tool of manipulation and brainwashing turns common thugs into weopens of mass destruction, joker makes security personnell kill inocent people which adds fuel to anarchy.
    The joker achieves his goals by wiping out fear of authority from a society.Just imagine if in city of newyork fear of police is removed just for one day, the whole city will become a living hell.
    Now the question is why joker is doing this and seeking pleasure in bloodshed. Well from the movie he showed signs that he has a tragic past(his dad cutting his face etc) and he want revenge but the individuals he want revenge from arent there anymore so he is now seeking revenge from whole society and blaims the society(world) for his tragic past.
    Now the million dollar question does this joker exist in anyform in real world. Sadly the answer is yes, it represents a group of people who has a tragic past. We all know what I am indicating towards but I just dont wanted to be branded what I am not. So I prefer to remain silent.

14. 

    Ezequiel Parmann March 9, 2010 08:56 am

    I go along with you actually, I believe! Might this become a possibility to be able to have your site translated in Spanish? English is my second language.